Blues Brothers Everton Podcast
Blues Brothers Everton Podcast
Celebrating Seamus, and F**k VAR.
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Everton's iconic captain is leaving the club, at least for now. We look back on Seamus' career, look ahead to Sunderland, and say a big f**k you to VAR.
Welcome Back And Latest Results
SPEAKER_04Hello and welcome to episode 91 of the Blues Brothers Everton podcast. Uh it's been a little while. We've had a few games uh to play, we've had a few VAR decisions go against us, which we're going to touch on um today on the episode. I'm joined by Andrew and Adam. Austin is apparently on a plane somewhere over Detroit, so I hope he's having a wonderful time. But we're grateful for the three of us to be here. Andy, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_03Hi, Ben. I'm good, thank you. Yeah, it's currently my first day off after a busy four days at work last week. So I've uh had a nice line this morning and then an afternoon around the house. So I'm good, thank you.
SPEAKER_04Marvellous. We are recording this on Friday, May 15th. So the Liverpool Villa game is happening as we as we talk. So hopefully we'll get some copy tears um as we uh as as we go uh live. Adam, how are you? I'm very well, thanks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, good to be uh good to be doing this again. How are you doing?
Late Goals And Defensive Wobbles
SPEAKER_04I am great, thank you. I am uh it's I mean, I have now gone back to work after um my paternity leave, which has been a bit of a shock to the system, but also great um to sort of get back into the swing of those things. And uh yeah, everyone's great, no complaints. Weather in DC is lovely. It's uh it's it's not quite hit the ridiculous humid summer temperatures yet. So it's a nice you know 22 degrees and sunny today, which is wonderful. Um so yeah, that's been good. Um but enough about the weather, let's get on to the the important business. So let's let's talk about the last sort of few games since we since we recorded. I can't actually remember the the date that we lasted the episode the last episode, but for argument's sake, let's go back to um I think did we do the one before the Chelsea game? So we've got we've did Chelsea Arsenal, Burnley. No, I'm looking, I'm reading the I'm reading the fictions in the wrong direction. Um Chelsea, Brantford, Liverpool, West Ham, Man City, and Palace are the kind of six games I think we've played since we since we last recorded. We're not gonna go into depth into all of them. But Adam, I'll start with you. Give us like obviously the big thing in the last couple of games, aside from VAR, which we are going to talk about separately, has been the sort of defensive fragility. You know, we we conceded late to Brentford and then actually conceded scored ourselves late to make it even. We conceded late to Liverpool and lost, we conceded late to West Ham and lost, we conceded twice late to Man City and Drew. We conceded not not injury time late, but 75 minutes plus to Palace. So I think that's probably like the biggest talking point from the from the last couple of games. So Adam, the floor is yours. Talk to us about how you feel about how the last couple of games have gone.
SPEAKER_02I'll start this off by saying Morgan Rogers has just put Liverpool one in the lop. So thank you, Morgan.
SPEAKER_04Um yeah, dear listener, I promised you cop piteers, and did we deliver or did we not deliver? Adam, carry it carry on.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, I think the the games over the last few weeks have been you know really disappointing because I think if my if I if I'm correct, I think I'll put this in the group, if my uh if I'm working out is correct, I think we've dropped over the past four games, we've dropped seven points from uh from like conceding the final goal in in a in a game. Um, you know, so obviously City being the most disappointing of that in terms of being 3-1 up with seven minutes to go, um, of normal time to go. Um and it's very un very sort of unlike a moy's side. We we've sort of we've we've scored a lot of goals um in that time as well, but at the same time, you know, we conceded a lot, and this sort and that sort of thing can become like a um it can become like a self-fulfilling prophecy because the m you score you you get into that habit and then the players will inevitably be thinking at like you know 80 minutes plus with a goal ahead or drawing a game that we're gonna be uh doing that again. Um so that's been really disappointing. The performances have been I mean uh have been better. You know, obviously Palace was was fine. If the city the city performance in the second that second half was fantastic, you know, that like tactically we were we came out and we really changed the way that we played. We were a lot more aggressive, we really put um put them uh under pressure and we looked tactically like we knew how to how to score against them, and we should have you know we should have won that game uh you know much more comfortably than what we did. So I think in the grand scheme of things over the past like four those four or five games where we've been in such good positions, you you can only sort of you could you can you can write yourself a baseline of you know, or we should have X number more points, and that you can look at the table and go, you know, we should be higher up. And I think we can absolutely say that because we've we have dropped a good number, you know, those those um those seven points that we've dropped would put us um you know in a Champions League um position uh in sixth. So it's been really disappointing, but I suppose in the grand scheme of things of the season, you know, would we say that you know at the start of the season we would want to be tenth with uh on 36 games? You'd say I think most most fans would say yes. Um but over more recently, yeah, it's been disappointing because European football would be would be fantastic for us. Um particularly uh you know the Europa League or even the Champions League. I mean Champions League would be you know financially transformative um going into the new with the new stadium as well. Um so yeah, disappointing, but you know, grand scheme of things, 10th 36th games, you know, we'll take that.
Injuries Full-Back Depth And Game Management
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think I think that's the right way of looking at it. It's easy. It is easy to kind of go, oh, we you look at the table and we'll you know, we could be here, we could be here, we could be here. But in reality, you could you could go through the whole season and look at goals we've scored late um in in games to win games. And if you take away those points, you go, oh well, we could be here, we could be here. And so it's football ebbs and flows. I think the disappointing one thing for me is that it is such a missed opportunity. We had a huge opportunity to go above um uh you know Chelsea and Brentford and and in the last couple of games and be really pushing for those what, as you say, what could be a Champions League spot. So that's what I find disappointing. Andy, without wanting to sort of go through the same sort of same sort of thing, I'd be interested in your thoughts on what you think the cause of this has been like. Because it is, to Adam's point, uh it's a it is a something that's happened far too consistently consistently to be a one-off, right? You concede late goals, that's kind of what what happens sometimes in football. But to do it on a such a consistent basis from winning from positive positions, you know, whether that's droppering or winning games, it's it seems to be a problem. So what do you what do you put that down to?
SPEAKER_03There's several reasons I think that have contributed to the consistently not being able to quite see games out. One of them is not having Jared Ranthwaite for such uh a big chunk of the season. Um he's obviously didn't come back till January and then got injured again. I forget which game it was recently, but of course, if he's there partnering Tarkovski, for example, your central defence is then just better. So, for example, do Crystal Palace score their second goal um uh last weekend where Keen and Tsarkovski sort of leave it to each other, probably not. Um also the the lack of fullback, fullback sort of strengthening that to the squad is another one because O'Brien's played there for most of the season. Again, I think him and Tsarkovski would be a better sense of half partnership as well. And for whatever reason, I've said before on the board many times. I don't quite understand why Patterson's not being given more of a run out of you know, Moyes obviously doesn't fancy him, and he's on record more than once as saying that he wants to he's in the market for another right back, so Moyes doesn't fancy him, so that that that situation is what it is, but so you've got Brandford being injured, one of your better centre backs playing consistently playing right back because Moyes thinks that he's um the best player to play in that position above the other right backs we've got in the squad, and also as well, some of it's just basic game management. I mean, there was a there was a in the city game, um I've only seen the highlight in this game, but I believe there was an occasion when I think it was in die that he could have ran into the corners near the end and he didn't do that, and City got possession, went up the other end, got up and got the corners into the second, of which is what Doku scored from. So some of it is is just yeah, and I understand you know, you've played um a long game against a top quality opposition, you might be tired mentally, but some of it's just players making wrong decisions. I mean, Jeremy Doku's goals, the first he basically scored the same goal twice, one with either foot. So I know it's like the 95th minute, and you're tired, and you've you know it's city, and your emotions are, you know, you're running on adrenaline and all that. But you've watched Doku score one goal like that, don't give him the opportunity to score another one. Somebody, especially Alkabras who'd come on a sub, just gotta run out at him, Peter Schmeichel, like obviously not with your arms up like Schmeichel, just run out to him and make him rush the shot. I mean, stick your arms up, stick your arms up for air one is anyway. Well, that's without because it's Everton, that's very true. Yeah, yeah. So to answer your question, it's it's obviously not one factor, it's a combination of factors. You know, it's it's a key centre half being injured for a good chunk of the season and these latter games. The lack of strength and depth in the squad at fullback being exposed. Well, say specifically the right back, Mikalenko's had a good season at left back. Um game management and players just making wrong decisions at really crucial times.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the the game management one for me was like, especially in the city game, I was fuming at the end of that game. Like, because we just to go through one up after 82 minutes and then and then draw the game is just like it to me, yes, it's Man City, they're great, they're incredible, etc. etc. etc. But to me, that's the sort of thing that just shouldn't happen for a Premier League team. Any Premier League team playing any Premier League team, a Premier League team should have the ability to go, do you know what? We're just gonna shut this game down for five minutes. Like we're just not gonna let them have the ball. We're just gonna move it around the back four, we're just gonna keep moving it, like, and we're just gonna kill the game. Instead, what happened is we we switch off, we panic, and we let Holland walk through the middle of the of the centre backs, and then all the pressure's back on us. And then I I agree uh entirely, Andrew and Adam, I'll come to you on this because I know you're at that game. But like the game management in that last few minutes was horrendous. Like the number of opportunities when like Donna Ruma came up for the first corner and it came to Alcaraz in on the the edge of the D. And he's got some space, he's got some time, he's not under pressure. And instead of like going, oh, actually, I could, you know, I could run this out, I could maybe score, he just sort of hoofs it over his shoulder, and then like their defender runs back, runs back, gets it, and it comes straight back at us, and they get another corner, and that's what they score from. Like that was just a moment where you just just the smallest amount of like thought and and you know uh calmness, you win the game at that point. You probably you can probably keep the ball from that point, even if you just go, do you know what? I'm just gonna run towards the corner. I'm not gonna try and score. I'm just gonna I'm gonna get this ball and I'm just gonna run towards their corner flag and I'm gonna wait for someone to foul me or tackle me, but you just boot the ball at the other end and you give it away. So I was like, I was furious at the game and that game management in that one because that was like, for me, that was like unforgivable. It was up there with it was up there with the with the with the Bournemouth game at Goodison all those years ago where we were 2-0 up and lost 3-2. Like it was that level of what like have you guys done this before? It was I thought that was really, really bad. But Adam, I I know you were you were there, and and for those of you who don't know, there is a long-running saga where Adam is yet to see us win at the Hill Dickinson Stadium and and was at the Man City game, and I can only assume was pretty convinced that was going to be the one, Adam.
SPEAKER_00Oh god, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I was I was mortified when when that goal went in. Because my initial my my my initial thought, I had a mixture of feelings like I want Arsenal to win the league out of the two of them. So I was like, you know, didn't want City getting back into it. You know, that would have been huge for our European chances. And then the third one hit me, which was Am I going to see us win at the Hill Dickinson this season? So that was my seventh attempt. Um and uh I mean I've got another one on Sunday, Andy and I go into the Sunderland game. Um so you know, hopefully I'll break my duck at the eighth at the eighth attempt. But yeah, I couldn't I couldn't believe it. It was just going back onto what Andrew said about the game manager in particular, I totally agree. I suppose I was watching it through like an emotional lens, so I wasn't really paying attention to the necessarily to the to what the players were actually doing on the ball uh in that sense. So like I'm my recollection of like Alcaraz, for example, was he couldn't really do anything else, and I wanted him to get rid of it. So I sort of get that, but I appreciate you know watching that back. I've not I've not watched I've not watched the um I've not really watched that the whole thing back in like detail like that. So um but we you know we should have had we should have obviously should have had a clear penalty in that game um as well and we'll see we'll talk about that uh we can talk about that a little bit later on but um you know we should we should have put that game to bed. I mean and Jai, I don't know what's uh it's like he gets in these amazing positions and then his shooting just goes to shit. It's like the guy can't it's like the guy can't shoot. You know, he had missed a really good chance against Crystal Palace as well, and he should have bagged two. You know, and and congrat and and well done to uh Tierno Barry who um when he came on I was really disappo really really disappointed to hear that he got booed by a decent number of fans in the from what from what came from the wall. Um, you know, it was quite audible, and I was really disappointed because I didn't think you know we were that we I think we like to pretend that we're not that sort of fan base, and Evertonians have this reputation of backing every you know, backing their players, but the reality is is that it doesn't take a lot for certain for for a for a small minority of our fans to to turn against you and they showed that and I thought you know well done to him for sticking two fingers up by bagging you know two goals um because that's the best way to react to that sort of thing. You know, ignor yeah, you can talk about the arsenal you can talk about the arsenal thing and um uh that situation, but that doesn't excuse you know that doesn't excuse that at all. So um I was I was delighted that you know he scored the goal to put us two you know um two one up and and three one up and I was uh delighted for him as well because um you know that's that's just completely unacceptable. Um yeah so turn to Sunday, we'll see um if I can you know in the absolute what's likely to be pretty much mid-table dead rubber of Everton versus Sunderland in the Premier League in game week 37. I may well get see us win. Um but apologies to Andrew, it will 100% be my fault if we don't.
SPEAKER_04Don't really go through a period, Andy, where you'd only seen us win. So this is like immovable force and movable object, right?
SPEAKER_03It totally is, yes. There was a time earlier earlier in the season when Adam obviously hadn't seen us win and had seen us win on three or four occasions. I have subsequently seen us not win. Um but yes, some something something we'll give um on Sunday. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I obviously meant unstoppable force, immovable object, yeah. Austin did that last week as well.
SPEAKER_02I know I think I think he cocked that up as well.
SPEAKER_04I know I'm I'm listening. Maybe it's infectious, whoever's hosting just can't get that phrase right.
SPEAKER_03We knew we knew language is all about under making people understand you, and we all knew what you meant, so it's good. Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seamus Coleman Value And Leadership
SPEAKER_04That's a fair point. Doesn't matter the actual words I used, the point was clear. Um yeah, Andy, just to come back to your point about like the the reasons for it, I think the the Branthwith one is massive. He actually he got injured in the Liverpool game, and then we conceded from a corner against Liverpool because I think we just missed him. We miss him so much in that. I also think stylistically Keen and Tarkovsky don't work together uh very well. I think they're too similar in the sense they're both kind of last-ditch style defenders. Um, they're both invariable in those situations when they're throwing their body on the line and they're blocking everything, they're heading everything and they're clearing everything, which has its place. But I think when you have the two of them together, there's not enough sort of you know, structure or nuance and uh or or solidity between them. It's all a bit last ditch. Um so I think that's really cost us and agree entirely on the O'Brien point. I think if you were able to have a reliable right back and slot O'Brien in at um at centre back, I I think you'd be in a much better state. I'm even of the opinion, and I can't like I've railed against this all season, but I'm genuinely of the opinion, given how well we've seen Merlin roll and Timura Bunham play in the last couple of games, I'm genuinely of the opinion you should play James Garner at right back so that you can get um you can get Jake O'Brien into the into the centre of defense because I just can't I can't face watching Tarkovsky and Keane again. Um, because and you know the data proof bears this out. If you look at um Bramthwaite and Tarkovsky and Keane and Tarkovsky, we concede 0.5 goals per game more across all of the games that um though those partnerships have ever played together at Everton. We literally concede half a goal more per game with um when it's Keane and Tarkovsky together over Brad Thweight and Tarkovsky. So it is just a worked defensive combination. So I would be all in favour of of that being the the partnership of last resort, which we have options for it to be, you know. Um it's uh it's probably Seamus Coleman's last home game for Everton on Saturday. Like, if he's fit, play in for that play in for as long as he'll do. Give him 45 minutes, give him give give overtime. Yeah, like I just I'm so tired of watching us uh watching Jake O'Brien sort of meander out on the outside on the right hand side because he's out of position, that's not his fault. And then watch us have two centre backs who can't like defend between them. Because if if you look at the goals we've conceded, you know, the the the last the last few games, it is so much of it is down to like balls into the box and those and those sorts of things, which just should be the things that they're good at. And they're just it's just not, and it unfortunately puts you in a position where you then have to like score, you have to score more than one or two goals a game to win. And that's like ridiculous. You know, we've scored in every one of our last four games. We scored three against Man City, we scored two against Palace, and we haven't won a single game. Like it that's just not a sustainable situation where we've where you score one, two, uh, five, seven goals in four games, and you don't and you don't win any of them. Like you just you can't you can't operate like that in the Premier League. So anyway, that's my sort of rantover. We should talk about Seamus Coleman. Yeah, what I would think is yes. Yeah, go on.
SPEAKER_02Just to go just to sort of push back on your point. I do I do agree the defending over the past few games has been, and I do broadly agree with like you know, Keen and Tarkovsky are very much sort of last ditch sort of defenders. I agree with that. What I would say is that obviously we've not had Branthwaite for the vast majority of the season, and Keen and Tarkovsky have played there, and before these last few games, you know, our defensive record was brought was broadly very, very good. We were in the top five, I believe, for goals conceded in terms of um the fewest goals uh conceded. Um before that, I think we've you know we've probably gone out of that over the past few games because we've conceded five in the last two, for example. But um, so I think our defending has been there's probably been possibly other reasons for why our defending, like you know, structurally, I think there's been other other problems. So, you know, and I think considering you know, and I'm not you're not having a go at Michael Keeney, obviously, I know you're not not doing that at all, but I think with him in particular, obviously Keenan Tarkov um Tarkovsky and Branthwaite are absolutely our best partnership. Absolutely. Um, but I think considering you know the guy was um on his way out last uh this time last year, and he's been absolutely phenomenal. For the first like few months, he was probably one of our best players. He was absolutely incredible. Incredible. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_04No, I I agree. I agree, like that over the course of the season has been very good. The last four games has been as reminded as why this is not a sustainable solution. But anyway, Adam, white clerical about Seamus Coleman for me.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_02I mean ev every ever anyone you speak to at the club just talks about him as being uh a fantastic player, a fantastic captain, a fantastic leader, a true gentleman. Um and I mean I I was I was um I saw a clip earlier. He played he he made his debut for us um in 2009, home game against Spurs, where I believe we won 3-2, we won in like the last I think we won it like the last minute. And he's he came on and was pivotal to two of those goals. It came on at right and he click came on. I think he played uh right wing in front of Tony Hibbert. Um I mean the transfer fear is absolutely insane, you know. He's probably the best. I I I I'd struggle to think of the bet a better pound for pound signing that anyone has ever had in my in my lifetime. And I don't my football knowledge is not good enough before my lifetime to say whether to to come up with anything, but in terms of like for getting free transfers, which involves signing on fees and all that sort of stuff, yeah, pound for pound, he has to be, I think, the best signing and the most impactful signing that anyone has ever made, I think, in in uh in my in my lifetime.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I I 100% agree with that. Like it is incredible. It is if you look at the numbers, because people like it sounds silly, you forget how much 60 grand is in football terms, right? Even if you sign someone for 600 grand, you'd go, oh, that's really cheap. Well, it's it's 10x lower than that. It's like it is it is it is an accounting error at Premier League level. Like, we will spend more on catering over the course of the season than we've spent on on Seamus Coleman. It is like it is a minuscule amount of money. So, like for for to turn that into you know what he's turned it into, a 17-year career, club captain, one of our most um, you know, highest appearances ever. I think he's numbered is he number nine on the list um of with um of of appearances ever, is just it's just phenomenal value. And I would I would I would argue um that he is the the most valuable Premier League player, the best value Premier League player ever signed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I read today that um over the course of his 400 and whatever of his appearances, that 60 grand fee works out at£140 a game he's cost us or an appearance, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Which is just yeah, which I'd I'd pay, I'd just I'd pay that every single time to watch him.
SPEAKER_04Well, but this is the this is the thing, like this is when you think about it, right? Like, this is a bizarre example, but we have cleaners who come clean our apartment every two weeks. I pay them that for 90 minutes of work, like the economics of it are insane. Like, we have got the same value out of Seamus Coleman. Everton Ford Government's got the same value out of Seamus Coleman as I get out of my cleaner. It is like it is ludicrous, like absolutely ludicrous. Um, anyway, we're um uh sorry Andy, I was gonna let you talk let you talk about Seamus Coleman.
SPEAKER_03No, that's fine. No, I uh he's he's what I'll Adam sum it up perfectly. The man's an absolute um club legend. Uh and the fact that he's been at the club for such a long time in such an transient industry as football can be is is a fantastic achievement. And also as well, um I just said a few moments ago about how how um how um Moyes isn't obviously fancy Patterson. Well how many managers has um Coleman played under? I mean he played under Moyes the first time, the full gumutter managers we've had after Moyes, and now Moyes again, and he's played right back under every one of them. So at no stage has any manager looked at Coleman and gone, well, I don't fancy him, I'm gonna get somebody else's. So that's a testament to Coleman's character and ability as well. I can see how them counting managers, he's currently on set eight.
SPEAKER_02Is he counting interims? Lampard, yeah, no, I'm permanent managers, lampard, who got who was at after Lampard, sorry. Um Dish Dyche. Uh yeah, sorry, I put Dyesh for Lampard stupidly. Um yeah, I'm on nine, ten. Yeah, ten if you if uh nine different, but ten different.
SPEAKER_03And of course, and of course, him and Baines managed the club in that FA cut tie after base. So so he's also even managed him, well, not managed himself, but you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_02So it's a great point. You're right. You think like you look at Nathan Patterson in the exact same position, and you look at the comparison, you know, consistent managers don't fancy him, but everyone has loved Seamus Coleman, and that is just a testament to all equality.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, if you hear Frank Lampard talk about Coleman, he he talks about him like he's the greatest person that you've you've he's ever he's ever worked with from a footballing perspective. He's like glowing about Coleman, and that is like something that I think is underrated when it comes to like his presence around the club, especially in those, you know, those dark days a couple of seasons ago. I think his sort of leadership is was a huge part of getting us getting us out of it, even in even you know, when he wasn't necessarily playing or when he was injured and stuff like that. So so yeah, I mean he is uh he will go down with many of the Everton greats, in my view. He is up there with even though the we you know we've not won, we've not won a thing with while he's been at the club, that isn't like down to lots of other factors that aren't to do with him in terms of in terms of you know who he is as a person, as a player and what he means to the club, he is he is up there with the you know, with the the the the Dixie Deans of the you know of of the of the world in terms of people the Peter Reeds and the you know the Andy Gray and the people you look back at and you go, yeah, that was that's what Everton is, that Shadow's Column, that's what Everton is.
SPEAKER_02And also you've just named you've just named strike, you know, strikers, and I think obviously strikers get uh much sort of a higher acclaim for bit because they score more goals and goals are all about what the game's all about. But to say that you know that he is that important, you know, as as a as a right back, um, is is even even greater testament to his uh to his quality.
VAR Errors And Everton’s Penalties
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, no, that's uh totally totally agree. I think he he is he's a cup legend. He will he's one of our greatest ever servants, and he should be, you know, he is up there. We should name a stand after. Like we should name, we should find some way of capturing his presence at the football club forever. It sounds like he's actually been offered a coaching job, um, which I would be surprised if he didn't take. Um, and I think we'll be, you know, you just want to keep that person in the building. Like um, even if it's hey Seamus, do you want to just make tea for everybody and give motivational chats? That would be great because you just want to keep that kind of character around. Um okay, cool. We're gonna move on and we're gonna talk about um a slightly more controversial topic and probably one that will get us slightly angrier than Seamus Coleman's time at Everton, and that is that is VAR. So obviously VAR has been a big talking point in the last couple of weeks, not just for Everton, but for everybody else. Um and I want to start with, you know, start with us, but we can go on to talk about it more generally. Um it came out today that we should have had a penalty in the Man City game with a foul by Merlin and by Bernardo Silver on Merlin Roll, the holding at the corner. It had subsequently come out that we should have had a penalty against West Ham for the handball by Fernandez. So that's two decisions in the last in the last four games, which have VAR should have made and and um have gone against us. We're the only club actually to not have a VAR decision to go in our favour this year in terms of an overturn. Um so the make of that what you what you will. Well, Andy, I'll start to I'll come to you first talk to talk about actually Adam, I'll come to you first because you were at the the the Man City game. Were you aware at the time of the roll silver thing? Or was it something that just looked like, oh, it's just some pushing and grappling at a corner, and then only subsequently when you saw it or saw it later, talk to me to me about that and then talk about VAR in general and the impact it's having.
SPEAKER_02No, I didn't see it at all, to be honest with you. Um I um even in the stadium uh at the time, uh I think uh uh the city went down the other end and city sort of had a corner, and the uh the big the display which says like you know checking checking foul or whatever, that was already on, but the player the referee had already waived it on. So it was obviously whatever they decided incorrectly, as it obviously turned out, um, was um was that there was nothing nothing to focus nothing to look at. So the I think uh the wall, obviously, because that was the end where it was, the wall were like quite vociferous about it. You know, they obviously saw it. I didn't, I hadn't seen it. So yeah, I would I thought it was incredible. Um, you know, that that incident in particular, you've obviously mentioned the West Ham one. We obviously should have had the penalty against Arsenal as well when Barry gets his foot kicked. So there's three. And you made the point, Ben, you're absolutely right about you know Emerson the Royal team not to have a VAR um uh overturn go in their favour. Um every other Premier League team has had at least two. So to add to your point, you know, make of that to what you will.
SPEAKER_04Um and and also just to just to add to that, people might be going, Oh, this all sounds a conspiracy. I'm not suggesting there's some sort of conspiracy against Everton, but what I'm saying is like there have been now, as of today, when the new announcement, there's been 23 incorrect decisions um by VAR this season, and three of them have been against Everton. So there's tw of 23 incidents this season, more than 10% of them have been has been decisions where we should have got penalties and didn't get them. So like it it's just incredibly, you know, people it people will go out of balances out, I don't know, it happens for every team. Yes, but it has disproportionately impacted us this season because you get the penalty against Arsenal, you draw that game, maybe that's one point. You get the penalty against West Ham, you probably draw that game. I know we went sort of equalize, but you know, different game played out differently. You get that penalty at 3-2 in the 88th minute and score it, it's 4-2. I even I'd back us to hold on from that point. So that you win that game. So you go, okay, well, there's there's four more points. And we talked earlier in the podcast about the difference four more points could make. So um it is just incredibly frustrating that these these things are consistently now happening to us. Um sorry, Adam, I cut I cut you off.
SPEAKER_02That's all right. Yeah, no, you make a very extremely pertinent, um pertinent point. You know, you can obviously look at the the points that we've dropped because of defensive frailties and not not putting the game to bed. But at the same you know, those things can be true, and you know, the referees not doing their job properly can be true as well. You know, VIR when it was originally originally brought in was it was meant to re you know, it was meant to take the uh any element of doubt out of it, and it's fair to say it's had the opposite effect. Um, and I don't think anyone uh has really anticipated the reason why that has come about, because um, as we know, VAR was brought in uh to deal with, quote, clear and obvious errors. Now we know that that's not true in in practical terms, but the problem that that has is because the referees know that they are going to be, they have some uh a colleague uh to uh look at multiple angles, can look at these things, they are literally scared to make these big decisions. And and because the very reason that VAR is being brought in is because they're meant to look at clear and obvious errors. If the referee does not make a decision at the time, that increases the chances that VAR will get involved. So it's it's actually having the opposite effects that it's meant to have, because they are they know that they're gonna they know that they've got this almost backup and it's made um you know, referee standards, in my opinion, for these major decisions, it's making them it's making the it if it statistically it might make them better overall because we're probably maybe more being spotted compared to pre-VAR. But what's clear is that over the past three seasons, I don't know before that, but in over the past I think uh two seasons ago, it was in the 30s by the end of the season. Last season it was down to um it was down to 17, but now we're at 23. So you know you're looking at about what's that about 30% increase um over um over the course of this um over the season. And obviously, you know, we've still got two game weeks to go um where it could that can increase even further.
SPEAKER_01So um, I'd bin it, I'd bin it tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02And I'm saying this to dad, like the it I can't I can't get excited about scoring a goal now, not properly, because I'm thinking uh even if there's nothing, even this there's nothing there, tiny bit of me is just like what if there is Tano Barry's 3-1 goal is a perfect example of that because I was I was like he must be offside I was on TV, I was exactly the same when he stuck it in the net.
SPEAKER_04I didn't even celebrate because it's just like always offside, it'll be rubbed up idea.
SPEAKER_02And I'm like 3-1 up against Man City, and like I just think that joy has been just it's just been has as an and it is cliche, but it's it's a cliche because it's true. It's been sucked out of it, and this idea of like getting things wrong, and I will happily say, you know, I I was wrong. I wanted VAR to come in because I thought referees need us help. I hold my hands up and say, I I think it's the way it's been brought in is been is been wrong. It's been people haven't thought it through in terms of the psychology behind the decision making on the pitch, like I've said. And it's it is it's been sucking an uh an element out of the game that is fundamental to the reason why we love football and the reason why we love supporting teams like Everton because we haven't won it, we haven't won Diddley since 1995. We've been in Europe's top competition in the qualifying rounds once in my lifetime, you know. So 3-1 up against City is a big fucking deal. And to have that element of doubt in your mind when you want to celebrate it, it's really frustrating, and there's absolutely no and it's not going to go away. So it's it's really it's sad, it's really sad that the referees are obviously struggling with it, and all fans have been negatively impacted, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think the point about uh the the not being able to celebrate the goal is really crucial because when it was introduced, it was like the I the the talk was it would kind of get rid of the controversy and get rid of the, you know, but we we still have exactly the same amount of controversy. We're just arguing about whether a decision that somebody should have has made after watching a replay versus a decision that they made in real time. And so I might okay, so we've we've what you've lost is all of the things that you talk about, the ability to celebrate the goal when it goes in, the ability to like feel in the moment and feel excited. And you've gained what a couple of a couple of percentage points on correct decision making. But still you still have all of the all of the disagreement and chaos of of of that we had before. So yeah, I'm I I was always uh uh someone who was skeptical of it because having you know been a referee and and been this in the position to make not at that level, but make those decisions, like I was always concerned about the the impact it would have on how people refereed games, but also like keep it to mind everything in the law is a matter of opinion. So whether you're whether you're able to like um whether you're thinking about like sorry, I got distracted then because Adam started waving 3-1 in front of me, which is obviously a reflection of the Aston Villa Liverpool score. So bottle those copite tiers, um, put them in the post to me, please. Um but as we're saying, like everything that go that a referee does in the game is in the law a matter of opinion, right? In the opinion of the referee. So even if you have a VAR, you're just outsourcing an opinion, right? You're you're asking for somebody else to give their opinion. And so like you can look at all these editors, and I want to come on to the West Ham one, West Ham Arsenal, which has obviously been the most controversial one of the last couple of days, but like um it's for me, it only ever should have been for things that are factual. And that is like, is that ball over the line? Is that player offside? They are matters of fact, right? They are not opinions, they are fact. Now, you can get into like where you draw the line and when you draw the line, they get that. But like a player being offside and has a ball gone over the line are factual things, and that's what the technology should support. The idea that you are re-refereeing a game from 15 different angles and taking five minutes to decide whether someone has or hasn't fouled or hasn't handled the ball or whatever, it's just nonsense. Because as you say, Adam, every time a goal goes in now, I'm I look at it, I wait and I go, well, what are they going to check? Was there a little push? Was he was he potentially offside? Was he you know, was there this? Was there that? It's like it's also it's all it's all nonsense.
SPEAKER_03Um Andy, talk to us about VAR. I agree with everything you guys have um just said in the last few minutes. Uh I was pretty skeptical of it as well, not least because I'd heard some journalists um from MLS talk about it because they introduced it a few years before we did, and they was all said it's not going to be the all-solving panacea that you guys think it's gonna be. Um and it's it's pretty shambolic, but beyond that, uh you can understand the referees getting decisions wrong on the pitch, or because you know they get one look at it from one angle, and you know, they might miss something, the player might block their view, they might just not see it correctly. But what I find staggering, and the penalty we should have had against West Ham is a good example, I don't understand how a qualified Premier League official can look at that and come to completely the wrong conclusion about what actually happened because what Michael Salisbury said happened was the West Ham player was trying to was grappling with Barry, and in the process of trying to grapple with it, his hand accidentally touched the ball. Now that literally is not what happened, literally is not what happened, so it beggars belief that you've got match officials watching multiple replays of an incident and still coming up with the wrong conclusion, and also this thought only occurred to me today. In the in the in the past, quite a few ref Premier League referees have been demoted back down to the championship. Urih Rennie was, um Stuart Atwell was, both of them subsequently came back, but there have been others. Um one guy from Leicester called Paul Danson was chucked back down to the um Um Championship or the Football League. Andy Derso, who once famously um sent three players off in a Leeds Everton game about 25 years ago, he was on the FIFA list and his performance was consistently poor. He was chucked back down to the football league. However, I can't recall the last time that a referee was consistently poor that they were removed from the Premier League list. Um and Michael Salisbury refereed a game after um he was VAR in the West Ham Everton game, he refereed a game in the last match week, I forget which one it was, and he was also VAR for a European game recently. So I don't see what consequences to poor performance that the I don't see that there's any consequences to these officials' poor performances because because obviously Salisbury was the uh the VAR um in the Arsenal game as well, when we should have had a penalty when Barry's leg was kicked. So it's it's the same people getting the same decisions wrong on a consistent basis. Now, if we did that in any of our jobs, there'd be consequences to that, and I don't see uh the PGMOL that there are, and that may then leads into the wider debate of is the reason people aren't being demoted is because there's not the same standard of people to replace them with, so they're kind of stuck with. What they've got. I have no idea. But I'll be interested to see in the close season if Salisbury uh maintains his place as a top flight official because quite frankly, I don't think he should. I don't think he's good enough.
Why VAR Processes Keep Breaking
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there's definitely a a a pathway problem, but that's been the case for a number of years. And it's actually worse now because you have to have VAR officials for all these games as well. So um and assistant VAR. So it's it's more it's more challenging. I think the the thing that I find immensely frustrating, and I will defend referees um as much as I can because I understand and know how hard that job is, even at the level I did it at, which was significantly further below the Premier League. But what I can't defend is mistakes in law, right? I can't defend, especially when it's VAR making them. And I wanted to take, let's take the silver roll penalty. The reason why that is ruled out was, and it said it on the VAR, and they said this in the subsequent explanation, was that the VAR determined that the holding had occurred before the ball was in play. Which, in law, if you hold someone before the ball's in play, you that you that's fine. That's not a foul. You can only commit fouls that lead to penalties, free kicks if the ball's in play. It's the same if the ball's out of play and you punch somebody, you get sent off of violent conduct, but the restart is the throw in all the corner, right? It's not a freak or a penalty. But that's just factory false. Like they have a video system which allows them to watch multiple replays at a time, and they just didn't take the time to check. Okay, when does the ball go in play? Is he still holding him at that point? And if they had, they would have come to the logical conclusion that when the ball is in play, he's clearly still holding him and he's dragging him to the ground. So therefore it's a penalty. And I just find it immensely frustrating to not take the time to check that. And then with the handball one, and as Andrew said, the explanation was, oh, it's he was, it was part of it, it was a quote unquote total accident, was what the VAR said on on the audio. If you listen to the audio, he goes, it's a total accident. He's trying to, it's he's grappling. Okay. Most penalties are total accidents. 95% of handballs are total accidents. That doesn't exempt you from being able to handle the ball in the box, like because you were trying to grab somebody when you did it. It's just it's infuriating to watch professional officials make such basic errors when they have the technology. That I think a lot of the time people, you know, we don't we don't have a VAR problem. We have a we have a qual an official quality problem. VAR can work in a world where you have the officials who are who are trained and are operating at a sufficient level of quality that they they are able to do that they're operating at the quality that they should be at for the for the standard of football that they're they're referring. I I want to go on to the sorry, Adam, do you want to say something?
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say, I was gonna ask you, Ben, about um, you know, being working in sort of your um industry. Um is there an element of like the talking over it the the way they communicate, the way they talk over each other and how that impacts obviously we saw that very, very high profile issue with um the Spurs Liverpool game when they just got that offside call totally, totally wrong. And that was directly because of they didn't communicate effectively and they were just talking over each other.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's 100%. I'm really glad you brought that up because I think it is a big problem with how they are, how those decisions are being made. And I mean that is the absolute classic, but you saw some of that in the West Ham Arsenal one, where like it was the discussion they were having was not clear. And crisp, because they were all talking over each other, because they weren't communicating clearly what they were trying to get through. The the Arsenal West Ham one, the VAR initially actually does quite a good job of identifying, okay, here are the things that I think we need to look at in totality. There's the foul on the keeper, but there's also trot holding, and there's also deck on right holding. So they got they identified these are the few things we want the VAR to look at. But then when they got the referee over, they showed him them in the wrong order because they started with a Raya foul, which is the last of those to happen. And then they didn't really explain what else they wanted him to look at. They kind of just went, Oh, there's a couple of other things here. And Chris Kavanaugh went, I I don't see much there. That's is so let's just go with the first one. If you're doing that properly, the process should be, hi Chris, I want to show you three incidents. We're gonna take them in chronological order as they happen on the field of play, because they well, the decision you make on the first one will impact subsequently impact the second ones. Here's the first one. This is Declan Rice on um whoever it was. I wanted you to decide whether you think that is the level of a foul, make that decision. Great, thanks. We're gonna move on to the Andrew Trossard one, make that decision. Now I want to show you the David Ryer one, make that decision. But that relies on the referees and the VAR having a structure and having a system for communication and then respecting it and dealing with it in real time. And this is a difficult skill set, right? It's one of the most challenging things in those environments when everyone's got the energy and you've got all the players around you to do that in a way that's structured. But you have to be able to do it, otherwise you screw things up. They should genuinely, do you know what they should do? They should get air traffic controllers and airline pilots in. And they should they should learn about how they do communication at the like. See, if you listen to, you know, one of the things I happen to get on my TikTok quite a lot is like air traffic control, like talking to planes and things going wrong and stuff like that. And it is like everything is clear, precise, crisp, it's in an order, it's all defined. You you say things in a certain order, you present things in a certain order, because that is what allows that system to operate. And they, I'm not saying they have to do that as regimented, but there has to be a way for them to communicate in these complex situations in a way that gives people clarity. Because otherwise you end up in this total mess of a situation. Uh, interestingly, uh, I actually think they probably ended up in the right place in the Arsenal West Ham one because it is a foul on David Ryer. I don't think either of the other fouls meet the bar of being a foul based on how the corners have been officiated this season. But that gets into, I think we've been far too lax on how we officiate holding on corners this season. Like I think the only actual foul based on how it's been looked at this season is the one on Raya. But I also think in a normal season, if you were applying the laws correctly, I think the rice one is also a foul. But that's not how it's been refereed this season, and that's the situation that we find ourselves in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I completely agree with that. Um just one more point about Arson before we uh move on. It's gonna be fascinating to see how they play PSG in the Champions League final because obviously the VAR and refereeing standards are more strict in uh your way for competitions. Now they've obviously managed to get this far and get to the Champions League final, but they're not gonna be able to get up to anywhere near the amount of grappling and holding and chicanery in that game, which is being refereed by um a German official. So yeah, uh it's gonna be a fascinating to see can they win the Champions League for the first time.
SPEAKER_04I I am a big proponent of do you remember the World Cup we had when they were just like we're just gonna give penalties every time there's holding in the box? And England got like three penalties against Panama because they were just like you just always kept holding it. Like, great, do that. Because you know what happened towards the end of that tournament? People stopped holding in the box because they knew they were gonna get penalties. Like David Moy said this quite well when he was talking about the roll silver thing, where he was just like, okay, well, if that's what if that's the standard, I'm just gonna teach my players to defend in a different way. And he's right, like that's what's happening. Everybody's going paying. Yeah, exactly. Everyone's we can all grapple, so let's all do it because they're not gonna punch it. If you tomorrow went, you know what, that's a penalty, that's a penalty. And for the first three or four weeks of next season, you have two penalties in every game. Do you know what they'd stop they'd start doing? They'd stop holding, they'd stop grappling in the box. Because these people, it's not like they're not autumn automatons. It's a decision, they're doing it because they know they can get away with it. So just stop being like stop allowing them to get away with it. Give five penalties a game, and then they'll stop very, very, very quickly.
Southampton Spygate And Proper Punishment
SPEAKER_02It's the small marsh it's it's winning by small margins, isn't it? You know, we have you know modern football is full of data analysts and performance analysts and people who are literally paid, you know, quite good good money to um identify little uh little tweaks, which might be a nice little uh, you know, could be a nice little segue into the uh into the side into the Southampton um spygate uh thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, let's talk, let's talk, let's talk spy gate and then let's we'll do predictions to finish. So the I mean this story is hilarious and out but outrageous and I mean mainly hilarious because I mean the the the picture of for those of you who haven't seen go on the athletic and s g Google the picture of the man spying on the Southampton training and um it is from the Scooby-Doo villain school of of of spying. It is like it you could it is the most perfect thing. I can't do it justice by describing it, but just go and search for it if you haven't already seen it is absolutely hilarious. But on a serious point, I think it is genuinely outrageous that Southampton could still get promoted to the Premier League, having been doing this for however long, and be doing this at on a scale that has helped them, obviously helped them in games, um, to get the number of points they needed to make the playoffs and obviously and clearly help them beat beat Middlesbrough. I think it's a total outrage that they could end up with a fine which will be dwarfed by the amount of money that they will be rewarded for getting into the Premier League. The the only fair and just thing that has to happen, in my view, is that they are booted out of the playoffs and Middlesbrough get to play in the final expole. Like that's that's that's the only thing that could happen for me. Now 4-1, Adam's waving his fingers at me. So um, but Andy, talk to me about Southampton and and Spygate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is both simultaneously hilarious and really serious and deeply damaging to the game. Um because it it's the chances that this is the only time Southampton have done this is obviously very small. Um the chances are that they've been doing it for a period of time, possibly measured in months, um, and this is the first time they've been caught. And uh somebody made the point on the Guardian Football Weekly on Monday that um they went on like a sort of a 19 or 20 game unbeaten run in the second half of the season that got them into the playoffs. Now it that could be because they've played really well, or it could be because they knew every opponent's set piece routine as well as their opponents did because they'd been spying on them. Now San Anton have asked me an internal review um as part of their defence. I'm not quite sure why they'd need that because this dude wasn't doing it on his own. He was obviously giving the information to somebody, and somebody put him up to it. So, how far up the chain of management does it go?
SPEAKER_04Um exactly who was who but also the my other issue with the internal review thing is like it doesn't matter if it was directed, or it doesn't matter if it was known, like it was cheating. It doesn't it doesn't matter if anyone told him to do it, or whether it was the chairman who knew, or the manager who knew, or the assistant manager who knew, it's cheating. Even if it was him doing it off his own back and giving it to the set peaks coach and no one else knew, it's cheating. And that's what the like the punishment should flow from that. Like it doesn't have to be some great internal conspiracy for it to be cheating.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, I I completely agree, but it's gonna one thing that will hopefully come out in the wash is just is just to see how many people did know and how far up the chain it went. I completely agree. That is irrelevant in terms of what punishment they should receive. And I also agree that that if it's proven that A, they are guilty of spying on opponents, B, especially how if it's gone on for a long period of time, then the only possible punishment is they're thrown out the the playoffs, Middlesbrough are in reinstated in their place, and they don't get the chance of promotion. It's it's as simple as that because you you you cannot have a situation where this sort of behaviour is allowed to carry on because it just completely goes against you know ethics and just just just just I mean, you know, fair you can argue that lots of elements of fair play went out of football a long time ago, but it's it's just it's just wrong. You just can't do this sort of thing and get away with it.
Sunderland Preview Plus Europe Maths
SPEAKER_04Well, and the other thing as well is really important is that like it's not a novel situation because obviously this happened with like Reeds and Derby a few years ago. So like, and everyone was kind of like, oh, we didn't really know how to handle it because they've never really seen it before. Whereas like there are now rule, like they are now, it's not something new. It's like, oh no, we've seen this before and we know we know how serious it is. So it's it's not a situation where they're dealing with something novel, it's it's it's a known quantity. Um conscious that we need to we need to wrap up, so I'm gonna move us on to um talking about um predictions for the weekend. So Andy and Adam, as we talked about earlier, are both going. So we'll cancel each other out, and it'll definitely be a draw, is the conclusion I'm gonna come to. Um uh I'm gonna go for I'm gonna go for one-one. Um I'm not really hoping that we see a right back at right back, or even James Garner at right back if that's if that gets Jake O'Brien into the centre of defence and then the rest of the team relatively unchanged because you know we've played really well. But um, Adam, what what are you hoping to see this weekend other than finally a victory?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, um I want to see a victory and uh you know Seamus Coleman starting at right back. Uh that's something that that that we need him to start so he can get his um he can get his exit um in front of the crowd as he as he fully deserves. Um yeah, I'm really I'm I'm confident I think um Sunderland are just below us. Uh they've not they've not been great over the past few weeks. Um and I think their season's pretty much fizzled out. You know, they've they've had an absolutely incredible season considering they were really um you know, they were odds on to not quite odds on, but they were you know favourite among the favourites to go down. Um so I I've predicted us to win, I think we'll uh win comfortably uh 2-0, you know, because one of these days when I go to the game, I've got to win eventually, and um uh and and that my prediction has to come true eventually, you know. Law of averages and all that.
SPEAKER_04Law of averages, yes, but maybe you just laws of the universe dictate that this is it now. This is like your the law of the law of sod is ruling more than the law of averages right now. You are like you you are you are destined never to watch us win. I'm sorry, we're gonna have to move stadium again because you're just like you know, you're just you you're gonna have to you're gonna have to live with this until until we get move into a new ground. Andy, predictions for this weekend.
SPEAKER_03I've got every confidence that we're gonna win this game. Um the last home game at Hill Dickinson this season. I think Everton will be right up for it. They'll want to go out on a high, they want to uh end the season at home with a victory, they'll want to give Seamus Coleman a good send-off. Sunderland are gonna be tricky opponents, but their second half of the season hasn't been anywhere near as good as the first half of the season. Um so I've got every confidence that we can go and get a victory, and I'm gonna go for a scoreline prediction of 2-1 to Everton.
SPEAKER_04Alright, so we've got a 2-0 from Adam, a 2-1 from Andy, and a 1-1 from me. So um let's see how we let's see how we uh go in the last uh in the last couple of games. The final question before we we finally wrap up can we still get Europe, Andy?
SPEAKER_03We can, but we're probably gonna need to win both of our uh last games. That would get us to are we on 49 points at the moment? Yeah, that would get us. That would get us to 55 points, which um at the which is six at the moment. Um however, Bournemouth's last two games are they've gotta play Man City, and I think their other game they're playing is somebody near the top as well.
SPEAKER_04I'm just gonna get a table up as I speak so I can uh Adam while Andy looks on the table, Adam.
SPEAKER_03I've got a table, yeah. So Bournemouth are currently six on fifty-five points, so we're not likely to catch those because they they said they play City, and but even if they get they need one more point, um otherwise we we can't catch them. So the highest we can probably realistically finish is seventh, um, which is where Brighton are on fifty-three. But so we can get Europe, but we've basically got to we've got to win on Sunderland, uh, win against Sunderland on Sunday, and we'll probably need to beat Spurs um the following weekend as well. If we drop points in any of those two games, then then it's done.
SPEAKER_04When there is a world where the entire footballing universe will be supporting us on the final day if us winning Spurs, Adam, can we not can we mathematically obviously we'll still can. Do you think it's possible that we get we still get European football?
SPEAKER_02Uh I think if the right if the if the permutations um mean that it goes down to like you know eighth position, which is possible, I think that's our best that's our best shot. Um because it's perfectly feasible that we're gonna beat Sunderland and then you know get a get a result and get four ball points and end up on 53, which could get you you know eighth position uh in the league. So um yeah, it is but it's it's possible it's possible, I don't think we will. And uh in a grand scheme of the season, that's fine. You know, no one would have thought we would. Over the past couple of months, when it's looked like you know, we've been in and around it, you know, past five games in particular, disappointing. Yeah.
Wrap Up And How To Support
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I don't think we'll do it. I think we'll fall short by two or three points, and we we will ask ourselves, well, j if this, if that, and that's the nature of the that's the nature of of when you when you drop points in in big games, you you know, there's lots of good teams in this league. And to get into Europe, you you need to you need to be on your game for more than the time than we have this season. But I think overall, if we finish 9th, 10th, I think we can all we would all have taken that at the beginning of the year, disappointing as it were late. So all right, uh that's where we're gonna wrap it up today. So uh thank you for listening, everybody. Um leave a rating, review, subscribe, send it to a friend, send it to a copite, um, so that they can listen to us live react to the game as it as it was going. It's in injury time now, it's currently 4-2. Um, so they're they they're gonna lose, which is great. Um, because that's always makes us happy. Um and then enjoy your day, whatever you're doing, listening to this. And we'll uh we'll see you again, hopefully, very soon.