Blues Brothers Everton Podcast
Blues Brothers Everton Podcast
Derby Memories, Man United Hopes
We reflect on the derby, that goal, in that stadium, and preview Everton's game against Man United on Saturday.
Welcome to episode 80-something of the Blues Brothers Everton podcast. We think it might be 83. So great to be here. I'm in New York, ben, you're in DC, right? I think I'm right in saying that.
Speaker 2:I am currently in DC. I'm going to Florida on Friday because it's my birthday, so I'm flying down there.
Speaker 1:So it's your birthday, ben's birthday, tomorrow, not Friday.
Speaker 2:It is my birthday, so he's going for his birthday.
Speaker 1:We're recording this on wednesday uh 19th.
Speaker 3:Adam, you're in london for a few days with l. Yes, yeah, yeah, going to uh, you can see the play that goes wrong. Always wanted to see it. Um, starring sean dyche. Uh, go and see that uh tomorrow, and then go into the natural History Museum and British Museum yeah, Excellent.
Speaker 1:Elle's promised not to heckle too much, but you know we don't believe her, so let's talk about Everton. Everything's great, isn't it great? It's great to be an Everton fan. So we're going to talk about the Derby a little bit. Before we do that, andy can't join us. He's working, but he was at the derby a little bit before we do that. Uh, andy can't join us. He's working, uh, but he was at the derby. So what we're going to do now is you're going to hear now from andy for a minute or so. He's going to kind of he. He gave us a great rundown in our whatsapp group of the emotions of that experience and we so we asked him to record it.
Speaker 4:So, anyway, here's that well, many, many things obviously can be said about that game. I'll try and do them in some sort of uh, consecutive time order, as best I can remember them. We got to the ground just after six and it was already packed outside. Um, we just got the tail end of the um, the fans welcome and the Everton team coach to the stadium, and we knew then or I knew then that it was going to be a special evening. There was just something else about the atmosphere, more so than other derby games or other night games there. And as for the, you know, the game started and the atmosphere was just a bear pit from the word go. It really was. We've all been there for special games when it's been. The atmosphere and the volume of the crowd has just been elevated to another level and it was like that from the start. It really was.
Speaker 4:And then to go 1-0 up in the circumstances in which we did, I couldn't believe the simplicity of that goal. It was clearly a training ground routine that worked a treat. I'd looked away for a split second, look back just to see Branthwaite play the ball through and Beto was just clean through and I couldn't believe the simplicity of it, and it demonstrates that Beto is one of the players under Moyes who looks like a new player. He's now a reasonably accomplished finisher in those circumstances. That was obviously demonstrated again in the Crystal Palace game. Yeah, that was obviously a fantastic start, um their goal to make it one all it was disappointing how we gave the ball away in the lead up to that. De corey had the great, had the right idea. If he'd slipped it through to mickalenko, mickalenko would have had the entire left half of the pitch to run into. Unfortunately he didn't get the ball quite right, gave the ball away, and it was from that phase of possession that mcallister made it 1-0. So that was disappointing.
Speaker 4:But into the second half for the first half of the second half I didn't think Liverpool turned up. They were almost still in the dressing room. We easily could have gone 2-1 ahead. Decorey had two excellent chances that he really should have done better with, especially the first one ahead that he put past the post. And again, how the ball came through to Salah when they made it 2-1 was equally fortuitous, although obviously when I saw him get the ball in that position, even even though we're sat at the other end, you know what the outcome is going to be. You can't just let one of the world's best players have those sorts of opportunities. And it was extremely frustrating to hear the Liverpool fans chanting we won the league at Goodison Park.
Speaker 4:And then obviously, obviously, injury time starts. Five minutes have been signalled and I said to Dad and I always believe this there's always a chance in injury time. Now you don't know who, for it could have fallen to Liverpool and they could have made it 3-1. But there's always a chance. And obviously you know the ball's bouncing round around the liverpool box, it go, comes out to michelangelo. He just hooks it into the box because, if nothing else, liverpool have got to deal with it, and they fail to deal with it and obviously it's flicked onto tarkovsky and then that moment where the ball's falling to him, it just happened in slow motion. You know, you realize he's all on his own and can he get a good connection, can he get it on target? Can he get it past Alisson into the net? And clearly he does all three of those things with with aplomb.
Speaker 4:And when the ball hit the back of the net, goodison Park was absolute bedlam. It was just the most glorious mayhem that I've possibly ever had in that stadium. It was just phenomenal, just limbs absolutely everywhere. And then of course, you've got the VAR check and we didn't have a scooby if it was offside or anything. We only found out later that Liverpool were obviously claiming a foul as well. I'll come on to that shortly. But yeah, to be in the stadium when that goal went in was a special, special moment. A couple of other thoughts. I've spoken to some Liverpool fans just in, you know, just sort of day-to-day, you know, coming together at work and stuff, and they've said about how they thought it was a foul on Canarte before Tarkovsky's goal and my reply to that is well, that's the sort of game that you've been playing all night.
Speaker 4:We sucked them in into a game of attrition. They clearly didn't want to be bullied, like they had been in the corresponding fixture last season where we won 2-0. So they, from the word go, they were just playing the man all the time. How Lewis Diaz didn't get booked every time. He just ran into Branantwaite when Brantwaite was trying to clear an aerial ball and we sucked them into playing the sort of game we wanted to play instead of them playing. If they'd played their own game they probably would have won. The outcome might have been different, but they let themselves be sucked into it. Would have won. The outcome might have been different, but they let themselves be sucked into it. Um and yeah, obviously.
Speaker 4:Then the stromash brawl fight whatever you want to call it at the end was just great fun. I was just hugging dad when the final whistle went um, um, actually, I've. I'll come back to the var because I was talking about that. Yes, he got the VAR check after Tarkovsky's goal and we didn't have a clue what was going on. And then we heard a few cheers coming from the Everton crowd Obviously people whether they had other information that it was given and then Michael Oliver gives the goal and we get to celebrate twice, which was much better than having it chalked off, obviously. So it was a special, special moment, and also shout out to the Royal Blue podcast that the Liverpool Echo do.
Speaker 4:They said this morning that that goal by Tarkovsky is the last kick of a football in a derby match at Goodison by an Everton player. After the game resumed, an Everton player headed it, but nobody touched it with their foot. So Tarkovsky, leathering it into the Gladder Street net is the last ever kick of a football by an Everton player in a derby match at Goodison, which I think is a very fitting way to end the fixture. And it's also equally fitting, returning to the shenanigans at the end, that it ended in a big fight and four red cards, because this is obviously the Premier League fixture with the highest number of red cards since 1992.
Speaker 4:23, I do believe. And it's also very rich in Liverpool to be complaining about fouls on Canarte when you think of all the decisions that they've got away with over the years. Yeah, you could fill a podcast with them all the players they should have had sent off and didn't including a player at Anfield last season. So, yeah, it was a special, special night. Really pleased to have been there and um also looked at the new ground before we went. That looks absolutely fantastic and the I heard nothing but good things from the test event as well, so can't wait to uh start seeing derby games in our new stadium okay.
Speaker 1:So, um, we weren't at the three of us weren't unlike andy, weren't at the derby, but uh, we all watched it.
Speaker 2:And obviously I mean I don't know how many times I've watched that tarkovsky goal on youtube since, but like when ellen literally when we were at dinner the other night was complaining to somebody about how many times she'd been forced to watch that goal because I was just.
Speaker 2:I had it on the tv and I watched the all angles thing they do on youtube and I'd watched every fan angle that I could find of it and she was like she was literally complaining to the people we were having dinner with, that she'd seen that goal too many times, so I feel which I which I feel like means that I've watched it just about enough, because it's like messaging in politics when people start complaining, it means they've finally understood, they've started to pay attention.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I've watched it.
Speaker 2:The perfect amount in my view.
Speaker 1:I was watching the All Angles thing on the TV at home the other day and having Sam, my partner, see exactly the same thing. See me watch this. It's a week on, right, we're still watching this goal and she just walked past her like, very like solemnly, with a bit of sadness just said you've got a problem.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's called Everton Football Club. We all share it.
Speaker 1:It's an illness actually.
Speaker 3:I've seen three different. I'm sorry. I've seen like three different versions of the Titanic theme song at the top.
Speaker 2:It's fantastic.
Speaker 1:And plus one to Peter I don't know, adam, if you heard this, but Peter Drury, who does NBC's commentary, the co-host they have on NBC doing the commentary. The analysts are generally terrible, with the exception of Tim Howard, but Peter Drury is a brilliant commentator and his commentary of that is just perfect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so if anyone hasn't, listened to that, look it up on YouTube. I watched it afterwards. And when you listen to the commentary of the goal as well, because it was on what was it over here? It was on TNT, I think it was. It was on TNT here and you can tell that whoever the lead commentator is, ali mccoy starts talking over it and you can tell that they basically just quite told him to shut up, uh, just to allow the emotion of the, the crowd and the noise and the atmosphere just to come up before they carried on uh talking, because if you watch it back, if you watch it back or listen to it back, he's like mid-sentence. He just then just stops.
Speaker 2:I can't imagine the greatest sort of limbs as it's called I've ever witnessed at a football ground was the Arteta-Fiorentina goal, that is, which I was in the Gladys Street. I think we were all in the Gladys Street for that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were, I was. I was in the Gladys Street. I think we were all in the Gladys Street for that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were, I was certainly there. Yeah, we were all in there, like that is. That is to me the great like was the greatest like limbs moment of a goal I've ever seen in Goodison and obviously we've just heard from Andrew I presume he's going to, he has covered in some way shape or that were flying around when that goal went in. But that must have been just the maddest moment that Goodison has seen in years, because I mean on the TV, the noise, the crowd, I mean my favourite was the bloke who just sort of charged on the pitch and grabbed the corner flag and was just waving it above his head. I mean the whole place went absolutely bananas.
Speaker 2:I loved it. And do you know what I loved even more while we're talking about it, I loved how strongly Liverpool heads fell off because they absolutely lost it. And yeah, you can call it small time, you can call it bitter, whatever, it was a 2-2 draw, blah, blah, blah. It's our cup final. But that 10 minutes where we scored, the VAR checks confirmed after thinking it wouldn't be and then they, absolutely running to the crowd, absolutely lose. They absolutely lose their heads. Slot gets sent off and dykes moaning curtis jones, is you know about to cry like that 10 minutes is probably up there with the greatest 10 minutes of football-related my football-related life. It was absolutely fucking glorious every second of it.
Speaker 1:I'm a great fan of shitting on the Guardians Football Weekly podcast, particularly Barry Glendening, but I will give him props this week because he said, I think, what we were all thinking, which was when all the shenanigans at the end which decory far, like he did nothing, I, when I I heard he'd celebrated, I thought he'd gone and like pulled his shirt over his head or mooned at them or something, but, like you know, he did fingers on lips, which was entirely appropriate in my view. Anyway, glendening was everyone saying oh, we know, we don't want to see that. And glenn denning on the guardian was like no, it's absolutely what we want to see. It's the best, it's the most entertaining end to a game any of us have seen in years. It's like we score. I mean, I think you know we were sharing a tiktok where someone said this might be one of the greatest moments in the history of the sport, because the pressure on liverpool, the emotion of the occasion, where we are, where they are, the context of the game on both sides, it being just almost the last kick of the game, the goal itself being a great goal. I mean, what a finish. And there's a moment we were watching.
Speaker 1:I was in the terminal in New York which went absolutely fucking mental, like, just absolutely fucking mental, like it's just absolutely fucking mental. I found myself. There's a stranger's armpit I ended up in. I've never met the guy before, couldn't, couldn't recognize him in a lineup. Now it, it was absolutely mental. And there's a moment and I think you could, I heard some folks who were in the Gladys street talk about this as well where the balls arch into Tarkovsky and the goal is right in front of him and it was just enough time for it to fall and we were out of it. It had gone. You know, when they scored, it went. You feel like even from 3,000 miles away, watching it on TV, you could tell it was like such sadness that this was going to be the outcome and we, they were going to have won 41 times at goodison to our sorry 42 to our 41. And there's just enough time, when that ball's dropping, for you to have a conscious thought of holy shit, we're about to score and I knew, and I knew he was gonna, it was gonna go in because you know, it's just everton, it's it's like we don't get relegated. This is what happens. You know, jagielka bangs one in from 30 yards a few seasons ago. I. This is what happens to us and it was. It was the. It's one of the most incredible moments and most significant moments that that game has ever seen.
Speaker 1:And as I'm saying this now, I'm watching the back end of Liverpool Villa and by the time this is out, you'll know what the score is. But they're drawing 2-2 with four minutes to go right now, and Ben your point around the pressure and them not being able to stand the pressure, I think is really coming home to roost, because if their whole thing, if the Coppites' whole thing, is, oh, we care, everton care too much, oh, really, we're the ones who care too much. That's what? Look, let's look at what happened and say you care less than us? Really, I don't fucking think so. I think it's the exact opposite. I think we know exactly who we are and they are not anything like what they think they are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, they changed their game plan completely when um to play. I mean there were 29 fouls in the game um, 20 of them were caught were were by liverpool. They couldn't. They came there and weren't able to play football. The calm, the calmest manager in the league ends up getting sent off and completely losing his head on the touchline and going back. I was saying this to people before. It was the last game under the Goodison lights, the last derby, and sort of going back to your point about it being an Everton thing, I think what makes it more incredible is it's actually not an Everton thing for that to happen. An Everton thing traditionally would be your centre-half puts it into row B of the upper Gladys and twats dad in the head. That would be like the most Everton thing.
Speaker 2:No, no, the most Everton thing is the VAR check. Yeah, that's the most Everton, no, no, the most evident, the most evident thing is the var check.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the most evidence.
Speaker 2:That's true we're talking about we score we score the goal, everyone goes mental and then it gets ruled off because decoray's toenail is offside. That's the most evidence and that's where I thought we were, and that's what part of makes it so incredible I saw that we thought we. We thought that's what was going to happen the moment I saw the freeze frame frame.
Speaker 1:Adam, you made a good point on chat. Actually, even then they freezed it at the wrong point, but I thought he's onside, like it didn't even and I know you weren't quite looking at the side angle, you can never quite tell, I just thought I can. Just it really looks really really like he's onside.
Speaker 3:And the idea that Beto pushed that guy and that should have been found. He doesn't push him at all. No, it's just occupying space. Yeah, we're talking about a team as well, one like you're right, you know, for it was 41, 40, 41, 41 for each team for the for the goodison win last season, when we beat them 2-0, we sung um, you know, you lost the league at goodison park this season. They were singing, quite you know, understandably, you lost the league at goodison park this season. They were singing, quite you know, understandably. We won the league at goodison park.
Speaker 3:Final game, final game, final derby at goodison, final game under the lights. You sent a half um, it puts it in the top corner. Um, and we're talking about a team that were league champions in 1914 and 1939. We are the most unlucky team in the world. So for that to happen, it's just like it's actually the antithesis of everton. Um and uh. Then obviously, to go to a var check as well.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, it was absolutely incredible, like I. I can't remember getting so. I can't remember reacting so emotionally to any goal, and probably the Arteta one comes into mind, I think as well. Another one that comes to mind is Andy Johnson's first in the 3-0 win, that one as well, which I was at that game and I was at the Lee Carsley 1-0 as well. They're the two games I can really think of in terms of the amount of emotion and it was just. Yeah, it was just, it was just, it was just glorious and you know, for it to happen, to happen this season with, given how much, how much shit we've had to endure under Dyche, was just, it was incredible.
Speaker 2:We should also, before we move off the Liverpool game, because I know we've got lots of other stuff to get onto we should talk about this. We should talk about this. We can talk about this from the Crystal Palace game as well. Our first goal is a lovely finish by Beto and it's a great ball through by Brantway and I know the Tarkovsky thing obviously quite rightly overshadows and that was the thing that was remembered in the game. But up until that point we played really well and we deservedly were in the game. We probably absolutely deserved a point um before you know, tarkovsky scored and and and we um, we definitely uh, earned that with that goal.
Speaker 2:But the Beto goal and I think Beto generally, I think you're really seeing the difference it makes when a you um give him the run in the team and the minutes and the confidence, but also if you put him in positions where he's going to score, like, and I think it is. There's been a lot of discussion about, like, how we're playing in a way that suits beto more, and I don't think that's right. Actually, I think it's actually much more to do with we're just playing football in a way that puts our striker closer to goal and therefore we're scoring more goals, like I don't think it's like, oh, we've changed the way tactically because it's better versus dcl. I think we're going hey guys, do you want to actually just play football and score some goals? And he's, he's proving himself to be what we kind of knew he was, which is a very good finisher.
Speaker 1:Um, in those, um, in those situations yeah, he's real and I agree with all of that, but he's a real handful as well, like he's you. He's a better footballer than people give him credit for. I thought some of his hold-up play against Palace was really good, some of his distribution was really good. But I think he's right, he's a very calm finisher. It's interesting because maybe he is an instinctive finisher as well, but actually the goals he scores are ones where he has a second to think, which is DCL's whole problem, and when Beto has a second to think, which is dcl's whole problem, and when beto has a second to think, the chance of a goal is is xg and the situation goes up, not down, which is actually very good for him. And, and I think he's just a real handful I think he just gives teams like you're not going to leave any defender one-on-one with him, you know, because he might just plow through you, you know, just through sort of sheer kind of determination.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the commentator for the Palace game was talking about how the two teams had, you know, two traditional strikers. You know big number nines, because obviously Palace play with Mateta who is, you know, quite a similar player to Beto in terms of the way he you know he's um, his hold up plays good. You know, he's got obviously got a um, he's a good finisher, um, and you wonder, like, is our defenders less capable of dealing with those sort of players? Because they um, because they're now used to playing for playing with teams where you know they've got inside forwards and you've got players, like you know, teams like arsenal and city who, where obviously city have harlem now, but like arsenal, um, arsenal obviously don't have a central striker, liverpool don't really have a central striker. You know they have to deal with three forwards rather than just one.
Speaker 3:And that sort of idea of being bossed around by a guy who's six foot four and a bit, you know very limmy, go-go gadget, leggy, like beto, is um, that they can't really deal with that. And you're right you say that he's technically better than he's given credit for. As you said, I think he just looks like when he doesn't, when stuff doesn't come off for him, it just looks really shit, which makes people think he is and he's not, and he's and he's a unit, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I mean, we have a bias towards like why he's a big lumpy guy. You say, well, there's a moment against palace where he he's got the ball, you know, to his feet, back to goal. Sort of on the halfway line he's spun away from a defender and very nearly released Harrison down the left. The pass just got intercepted and it was, like you know, there was real quality there.
Speaker 3:What do you want your strikers to do? You want them to put the ball in the back of the net. He's got four goals in his. Is it four in his last three? Four in his last six? You know, his record, since Moyes has come in DCL has been injured has been absolutely brilliant and it's not just the nature of the fact he's scoring goals. We're putting him in positions where he's going to score goals. Obviously he had a good chance against Palace, that sort of instinctive finish that he missed. But when he's got that time it's like you can see that he waits until the very last second. He knew exactly what he was doing in that finish against Palace where he waited for the goalkeeper to go down and he knows the defender's coming across. If you look it back, he takes a look at where the goalkeeper is and he knows the defender's there and then he just waits for them both to go down and then just slots it in the gap between the two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that Palace goal was a lovely finish. The other thing about him looking quote-unquote lumbering and I should credit the guys over at the Blue Frontier, which is a US toffee podcast, and shout-out to the DC Toffees, who I finally got around to sharing the link to this podcast to, only for one of them to reveal that he'd been listening to it for a while and just never knew that it was me. So, hi, Matt, thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:In other news, people listen to this podcast, I know.
Speaker 2:I was astonished as well but there we go.
Speaker 2:But the guys over at the Blue Frontier were talking about this and the reason why I think Beto has this reputation for looking a bit like Bambi. He's always battling people, he's always fighting for the ball, he's always physical. So, yes, he can look ungainly, but that's because he's never shirking from the battle of it, he's not letting himself be beaten without a fight. And that means that when he loses the ball, sometimes it looks like he's lost it because he's ungainly, whereas actually he's lost it because he's ungainly, whereas actually he's lost it because he's fighting harder for it. So he's sort of a victim of his own physicality that he looks ineffective because he's trying really hard, and I thought that was a really. It was a really smart point about, like, how it can sometimes be the exact opposite of what it appears. It's not that he's ungainly in a bad footballer, it's like he's fighting really hard for the ball and that makes it look like that.
Speaker 1:And he sort of seems to thrive on that, and I think there's a really good Jonathan Wilson column in the Guardian a couple of days ago about. Wilson has written lots of books on tactics and very thoughtful about this stuff and was reflecting on the sort of evolution that's happening in the game, which is the sort of pure that's happening in the game, which is, you know, the sort of pure play out from the back thing is like being challenged because teams are better at pressing and actually, you know, you speculate, the teams that will do well in the future are the ones who can do both, and part of doing both is actually it's amazing to have someone and we know Moyes loves this who you can knock a ball down the channel to and they are going to be athletic, they're going to get there and they're probably going to either maybe win the ball challenge or, half the time, get a throw in, you know, two-thirds of the way down the pitch. That is a really great way to an option to have in terms of how you play football, and I think Beto gives us that like so so well. He seems like a great bloke as well. I don't know the guy, but like he just seems like a, really like someone you just want to succeed, like he cares, he's really into it.
Speaker 1:You see his reaction the winner against Palace. He's like you know, having like a. He's like gone to rapture basically around the penalty spot. He's like gone to rapture basically around the penalty spot and I think, and he's like I, just you, you're someone who you, you know people, players come and go and you know he's they're not you can't expect them to be fans, but he's someone who just obviously wants to, so wants to do well for himself and his team and that's, that's that. That means an awful lot to me and it's got the kind of player you want in the team he is a fan.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if you, if you, knew this, but, like when we signed him, there was a video that circulated of him like training back in the mid-2000s in an everton kit, because he he loved lukaku and so he loved that. He watched he. So, yeah, he talks about he. He was like the sort of the first dav not quite the first David Moyes team, but the Martinez team when it was, you know, baines and Coleman and Jagielka and Lukaku and Barkley and that team. He, like, he watched that team, he was a fan of that team. So when you say you can't expect them to be fans, he actually is a fan. He is someone who has watched Everton and genuinely seems to love it.
Speaker 2:Speaking of other players, and then we're going to get on to transfers, I was really impressed with Alcaraz and that could. I really think that could turn into one of those signings where you go how have we pulled that off? Like, how have we done that Cause? Like, scored a great goal, got an assist. Seems like the right sort of, you know, technical player that we want carries the ball well, has a little bit of that um, uh, that fire in him because you know he's argentinian, so you know, has that sort of not afraid to get in a scrap, like you know the derby when it's his first first game at goodison. He was right in there at the end with.
Speaker 1:He's only met them two days ago. He's like he was right.
Speaker 2:He was right in there with with all the players like, so I thought I think he could be a really smart bit of business for us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just going back onto Beto, you see he was released by Benfica as a kid and then was playing part-time and working at KFC in his late teens and I think he was about 20. And then he got picked up by a second division portuguese team, did relatively okay there, then moved to uh it you know, got a big move to udanese um and then obviously I spent a season, I think season or two there. Then we picked him up. So he's obviously he's got that.
Speaker 3:I think when you have to fight that hard, you have that. I think when you have to fight that hard, you have that real fire about you and appreciation of where you are. I think that's why you know, like you look at Jamie Vardy with his career trajectory, you know that makes him sort of the player that he is, because he plays almost like he still is playing in the 7th or 8th tier where he started his career. That makes him the player that he is. You'll never lose that. What some people might say is technical limitations and stuff He'll never lose, being an absolute nonsense for defenders, and there's not yeah and modern defenders don't.
Speaker 3:They're not, they don't, they don't really train, they're not really meant to work like that anymore. You know, you don't have, you don't have your. You know, terry butcher, john terry sort of defenders anymore that can, can hold their own against big, big defenders? There's only a handful of those who really can, because the emphasis is now on technical ability of your defenders, because, as you said earlier, austin, the modern football is to play out from the back, so your central defenders need to be a lot more technically gifted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have the ball actually more than anyone else.
Speaker 3:Exactly and they play through the lines a lot more than they used to, you know, which is why you can get you know in Brian Shawcross, you know, springs to mind. You know could barely kick a ball straight but he was a bloody good defender for Stoke for so many years, so that's always going to be for him and he's got the most important attribute nailed, which is finishing and calmness and composure because that's the opposite of dcl is that when he has a check, when he has to think about a chance, he misses, which is why his best season were those pretty much all one-touch finishes in the ancelotti season well and that's in the ground as well yeah, and that's the thing about the management as well.
Speaker 2:is that like that's why ancelotti is one of the best managers in the world, because he identified with Calvert-Lewin? It's like, okay, you're really good at this and you're not very good at this other thing, so I'm just going to get you to do this. It's like I'm just going to get you to. You're a great instinctive finisher, so I want you to just be in positions where you're that's it, that's your job. And that's like sometimes management is really simple. It's it's like where do you, where do you win? What are you good at? Ok, great, how do we set you up to do that more?
Speaker 2:There's an obsession in like that one is go, sort of all management and stuff. There's an obsession in like corporations and in teams and stuff is to go OK, what's your weakness and how do we build on it? And like that has value, right, but. But actually there's much more value by emphasizing strength and building a team where you assemble people with complementary strengths. Rather than going, oh well, we need to level everyone out. We need to make the people who aren't very good at this, we need to build them up. It's like no, dominic Harlow is really really good at. He's really good at lots of things professional footballer but he's really really good at instinctive one-touch finishes. So let's not try and make him run the lines or have one-on-ones or whatever. Let's just tell him to stand at the penalty spot and finish one-on-one finish instinctively, because that's what he's really good at and that's like smart, smart management but yeah, that's the total opposite of movies.
Speaker 3:You can see that Moyes has obviously seen the players and go and look, you know he probably don't have the tech, he doesn't really have the technical players available for injury uh that he wants. So you know, we change our tactics and you know what's the first thing that happens at a uh when we obviously we scored directly from it against, uh, um, against, was it against Spurs? When Decore scored after 11 seconds, the ball goes straight to Pickford from the kickoff and he goes long because we're trying to win possession high up. We, you know, win possession, like gain possession high up the pitch and then we can start playing a bit of football. We're not playing for set pieces, you know.
Speaker 3:Obviously you can see our the goals from open play. You know we've scored more goals from open play since Moyes took over than Dyche. We got under Dyche all season. So it shows that we're obviously creating more chances. But Moyes has recognised that the way to get us to create more chances. He's changed the way that we play by going longer and being more physical and stuff. And it's not going to be a permanent thing because he doesn't want to play that way, but he's recognised that that's the way that we need to play with the players that we have available.
Speaker 1:It's interesting you say that because I think in a sense I think I agree with that, but also you're both a bit right and wrong. I think Moyes is the ultimate pragmatist. For sure we know that he doesn't really have a way of playing. That's why Ferguson likes him, because Ferguson didn't have a way of playing either. He wanted to win games and he was very much. How do I get these players, which I think is absolutely right? I think we're seeing with Ruben Amarin at man United will be the death of the project manager, who has a way of playing and tries to force the universe to bend to it. But there were some stats I was seeing I'll put them in the show notes on Blue Sky where there was an analysis of how direct teams are in terms of the velocity of basically the speed at which they move up pitch, and Everton actually are about 25% slower but less direct under Moyes than we were under Dyche. So he's actually he's prepared to go long, but overall we're keeping the ball much more and actually making slower progress but obviously much more effective progress up the pitch than we were under Dosh, which was a little bit, as we know, neanderthal football.
Speaker 1:All right, we've got a couple of minutes. We've got about 20 minutes. We're going to talk about a couple of other things. Transfers first. Ben, you requested this. You asked is Kevin Thelwell doing a good job segment. So welcome to a new segment on the Blues Brothers Everton podcast. It's called is Kevin Thelwell doing a good job, ben, is Kevin Thelwell doing a good job?
Speaker 2:I won't spoil my answer. So let me talk to you about the. Let me give you the context first, because there's been a lot of conversation about Thelwell because his contract is up at the end of the season and there's been a lot of you read a lot of like criticism of him online about not doing a good job and, like you know, he's rubbish and blah blah. And you know I see in WhatsApp groups like can't wait till he's got rid and I just sort of thought it would be an interesting discussion to have, semi-objectively, about what he's been able to do and the resources he's had, so able to do and the resources he's had. So I'm just going to very quickly to sort of set the stage for this. I'm going to read you first of all, all of the players in in the time since uh fell well, took over, and then all the players out, and then I'm gonna give you the net spent, right, I'm not going to go through every transfer like value wise, but um, so since he took over in february 2022, we have signed james tarkovsky, dwight McNeil, amadou Inanna, neil Maupay, james Garner, adrissa Gay, eldon Jakubowicz, who I think is a reserve goalkeeper, ashley Young, yusuf Chimiti, beto Arno Danjouma on loan, jack Harrison on loan, ilman Ndjai, tim Iribunam and I think this list appears to be missing Mangala and Jesper Lindström, but I think they are the other two and the players we've got rid of in that time, not including players that we've just released, but we've sold Richarlison, alan Broadhead, gordon Nkunku, moyes-keane, ella Sims, samuel Smith, iwobi, damari Gray, neil Mopay.
Speaker 2:Now that is like the two sides of the coin. Our net spend in that time is around. It's difficult to measure. The website I'm looking at, which is Transfer Market, takes it somewhere in the region of about 75 million million profit. So we have and over the last five years I looked this up earlier, which is obviously pre-Belwell as well but over the last five years we are, I think, the only Premier League team to have a net profit in the transfer market in that time. So I think we could go player by player. But I think if you go back and read that list of players, I think the only one that you really look at and go, oh, you missed there was Neil Mopay and the deal that we've got for him to go out on loan. We're going to make a book value profit on Mopay anyway because of the obligation that's in the deal.
Speaker 2:So the answer to the question has Kevin Thirlwall done a good job? I think he's actually. Yes, he's done a really good job. With the resources he's had and the constraints that we've been under financially, I think he has managed to sign players that have made a real practical difference to our team. I think if you look at some of the value he's got Dwight McNeil for 15 million, james Garner for nine, you know Beto's now coming good, illiman and Jai for somewhere around 15, 16. I think there's plenty there to justify that actually we should give him a new contract and he has earned a new contract because I think if you look at the constraints he was working under and what he's managed to deliver, I think he's been a huge, huge success. But that is my position coming out from this. I'd be really interested, for the purposes of a discussion, what you guys think.
Speaker 1:Adam thoughts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I broadly agree. I think he's been very successful. I completely agree. Morpé was the only real player I would say there, who the significant investment, who didn't work out. That was a disastrous signing and there's always going to be, because the profile of player that he was, you know being so different to um, to calvert lewin, as we talked at the time when we bought him, you know we needed, we really needed a, a striker, but the idea, the, the player needs to be a similar profile to calvert lewin because you've got a set way of playing and you want to make sure that your players fit around. That if that's what you're going to do and then and then we obviously more than made up for it with beto, because cavit lewis is obviously injured then beto can um come in and and and and be, and be a very similar sort of player and you know, reaping the rewards for that. And even like significant investments you know like you talked about, you know mc, you talked about, you know McNeil, for you know, really good technical player for a good amount of money, james Garner, steal at 9 million. But even like the significant investments were bought with with the idea that they've got a lot of value that we can. We can sell for a significant profit. You know, look at Inanna for 33 million and then then sold him for you know, 50 to villa a couple of years later. Um, so it's been smart and I think the the biggest, the big, the the best thing about him, I think, has been probably more likely, more likely, the fact that I think um mashiri recognized the way that he treated Marcel Brandt was completely counterproductive. So I think Kevin Thelwell has been allowed to get on with his job a lot better and we're seeing the rewards of that. So I'd be absolutely looking for him to renew his contract.
Speaker 3:I think the question will be a director of football has to work in tandem with a, a manager. Um moise is very is well known for wanting to have a lot of dealings in terms of scouting of players. You know, famously he he never, ever turned, he never uh bought a player that he's not personally seen uh in the flesh. You know, for example, he went over to belgium at least um at least half a dozen times to go and see um fellaini um, so that that will probably be the only sticking point. It's like how well can moise and and kevin thalwell work, because I think moise will.
Speaker 3:Because of the solidity that he will bring and he's got a two-and-a-half-year contract. I think that will be a determiner in whether he gets a new contract and I would hope that they can and I don't see any reason why they can't. I think it's fair to say that Moyes' influence will be less than what it was at Everton because he has a much more central role. I think it's fair to say that Moyes' influence will be less than what it was at Everton because he has a much more central role and I think directors of football have taken over a lot more with overall football and strategy than when Moyes was in charge at Everton. But I do still think that that will be a consideration.
Speaker 2:The other one that for some reason is missed off this list was Jake O'Brien, who I don't think I mentioned, who was turning into looking like a very, very, very good player, even playing out of position. So I just wanted to flag that.
Speaker 3:Even that's smart. We bought Jake O with the, with the understanding that jared branthwaite is not going to be there, uh, for very much longer. So he was bought as a, as a direct replacement. They obviously become available, and we got to equate him for, like what?
Speaker 2:15 million quid you know, yeah, 17 is the on, but yes, it's probably, it's somewhere in that, in that range.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it would be interesting. You'd be surprised, wouldn't you, if two things would surprise me. One, if Everton don't want to have a director of football or someone in that role. That would be, I think, unlikely. And two, if they sort of looked at what? Because you know, you've got to assume we don't know the free kings, you've got to assume they're at least rational people, probably smart, rational people. Looked at what you've just articulated, ben, and didn't go. This guy's done a good job.
Speaker 1:Now, maybe there might be some question about, okay, well, can he go to the next level? Maybe, but you know, and who else do you get? If you can get some rock star, fine, but you know, there's very, very strong arguments. I base this on nothing other than kind of, you know, doing a little bit of a one plus one might equal two. I suspect a lot of decision-making around Everton will be quite different this week, because I think this is the first week where they can sort of really go.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're going to be a Premier League team next year. You know, the chance of us getting relegated now, I think, is like according to Opta, is like 0.5%, which is the same as man United's right. So the, I think the so that I think will be a big deal for Felwell, because does he want to be a director of football for a championship team? Probably not. And for Everton, about what money can they spend? What does the budget like? What does PSR look like? I think there's probably a lot has been on hold because of that uncertainty yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I think that's right and I think having the clarity early on is is super useful. So you're not like down to your fingernails. I still maintain and I think I said this at the time in our whatsapp group I still maintain that we will look back and go after we beat leicester. We didn't need to win another point, because I think that I think the bottom three teams in this league are not going to get to 27 points. I think we will have three teams go down on less than 27.
Speaker 2:So I think people have said I've listened to all the podcasts and people have said, prior to the Liverpool game, we're like oh, we need two more wins, we need to beat. And I was like I think we're safe. I think as soon as we beat Leicester, we were safe Because it just For two reasons One, as I say, I don't think the other teams will actually get to 20, whatever that took us to 26, I think. And also, you accidentally pick up three or four more points in 15 games, right. You could be Southampton and you'd pick up three or four more points in 15 games, right? So I just thought by that point it's immaterial. So I suspect they've been planning on the basis of being a Premier League club for a little bit longer than that, but I agree it does unlock the ability to make different decisions with a view to what we are next season in our brand new, shiny new ground looks what?
Speaker 1:a fucking incredible it's almost like we planned this one a little bit and had an agenda, which is not something not always the case. Dear listener, let me promise you, um, uh, yeah, the stage. We'll record this on wednesday 19th. Uh, the first test event was, I think, last night. I time zones confusing monday night, monday night.
Speaker 1:Everton's lost start, as you mean to go on Under-18s lost to Wigan. The stadium looks fucking brilliant. There was a really good ped from Toffee TV did a good sort of thing from it, and then him and Baz had a good conversation which you should look up on YouTube. But I just say I'm so, I am so fucking excited to be in that thing. I think it's going to be absolutely uh, it's going to be really fucking brilliant and I'm very happy that we get to.
Speaker 3:I get to go there soon it's quite significantly down the list of important things in the stadium. You know, like increased revenue, jobs it's going to bring to the area, but have you seen the fucking food? It looks amazing, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, apparently that was a test kitchen, so I don't know whether the food will be the same, but you would hope that that is setting the standard of what you would expect.
Speaker 1:You've got this sausage roll that's got like crackling baked into it. Sign me up.
Speaker 2:Salt and pepper chicken. It looks slime. Yeah, yeah, it's a chicken. It looks, looks incredible it's you know, we don't, no one has to worry about staring at a post anymore.
Speaker 2:It's, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2:The the only downside and, as I say, all the pictures looked incredible, all the feedback looked incredible.
Speaker 2:The only thing that I saw people go this could be a problem is apparently the transport um is a nightmare because and that's partly because you know, this is why you do test events, right, you're checking, like how it works practically, but apparently sandhills, even with 10 000 people, was an absolute horror show, like trying to get in and out and they didn't put on. And now whether they weren't doing this because it was a test event, they didn't have like as many buses as you would expect going from the city center, so apparently it was just it was actually not that great in terms of the traveling experience because basically you have one train station, which is sandhills, which is not is like a one track not built for that volume of people at all, and then you have your half an hour basis, half an hour's walk or a short bus ride from from lime street and you know. So your options are kind of limited, depending on your mobility as well. So I think that's the only downer quote.
Speaker 1:Unquote on the whole thing is I think they've got some transport stuff to work out um, especially with the train and the city council have put parking restrictions in place that basically ban all parking around the stadium every day of the year. So, yeah, absolutely like insane. So all the businesses around it are like going absolutely nuts. Understandable, because it could be like a, a tuesday in july where there's no football for months either side, but you can't park outside. You know the whatever store you want to go to? Um, yeah, I imagine they'll. They'll um, thinking about what?
Speaker 1:The geography of that area? I think the buses are going to be the answer and end up being the answer to that question, because that's the thing you can realistically do the train, that that there's mersey road. The train, the line capacity isn't right, the stations are pokey, it's not going to work. But if they have a shitload of buses from and also from the idea I bet they'll do it for a bit from the north as well for people to like park outside yeah, like you could see how you could do a park and ride.
Speaker 2:I mean, you could do a park and ride at like, off what on all avenue, right off the m6, at goodison, right off the m62, sorry, um, like basically where the ground at Goodison is now. You could park and ride up there and bring people in from that sort of direction as well. They'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:It looks great. The nice thing about watching the video it's funny. If you go back and watch the videos the turnstiles seem a bit narrow. I'm not sure some of our fans are going to be okay Because the way they've got it set up that they're those turnstiles which you know, I understand why they do this. Well, maybe I don't, actually, because I don't it. The turnstiles are those full body, you know floor to ceiling turnstiles. They want people jump them or whatever. Fine, but it looks actually like quite an old school turnstile.
Speaker 1:It's got the electronic. You know, tap your phone, uh thing on the electronic. You know. Tap your phone thing on the screen, like you know we use if you go on the London Underground or get on a bus or whatever. All great. But the way those screens are set they actually take up some of the space that you would walk through. They're sort of offset slightly and you could see people in this video. Sort of people are sort of fairly average size, turning side on to sort of scooch past. And you know, I think People are sort of fairly average size, turning side on to sort of scooch past, and yet I don't. I think there's going to be some people who have a logistical problem getting into this ground. I don't want to cast aspersions on the mass of the average Evertonian, but I don't know if they were a particularly skinny bunch of people.
Speaker 2:And also, if the food's as good as Adam says, we're not going to get any skinnier.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you'd be fat on the way out. I looked at it and thought why have they? Because you build this thing from scratch. Why have you got a turnstile that's the same turn, like, yes, you scan a phone to get in, which is different, but the turnstile itself is exactly the same turnstile you would have had 50 years ago. Is that the best way now, when you've got like the stuff you have on trains, where you know they sort of have sliding perspex doors? I don't know, anyway, we'll see.
Speaker 1:Uh, but the ground looks fucking spectacular and those of you haven't been to it I haven't been close to it, I've been to the road outside. You can get closer than that now. Um, it is fucking enormous. I mean, that is the thing I would say if you, if you haven't been close. It is we think about. It's a 52 000 seat stadium compared to a 39 000 seat stadium. That profoundly underestimates the size of this thing it is. It's like it's landed from space. Um, onto that and uh, it just I think it's going to be absolutely iconic for us, uh, and will drive the coppites absolutely mad.
Speaker 2:It's funny you say about landing from space, because I have a mate who and this is actually something he said about NFL stadiums, which is a pretty almost entirely true is that brand new NFL stadium, and I think you can apply this to Bramley more, doc. Brand new NFL stadiums are essentially spaceships that have landed in shitholes because the land's cheap and it's easy to acquire. So you go to like any brand new stadium in the US. It is almost without fail, this incredible, technological, beautifully architectured building in kind of a shithole. And if you think about what Bramley Moor Dock was before, that we've essentially taken a spaceship and landed it in a bit of a shithole. And if you think about what Bramley Moor Dock was before that, we've essentially taken a spaceship and landed it in a bit of a shithole. That will now get better because we've put a spaceship there. But it's funny you describe it as looking like a spaceship.
Speaker 1:I can't wait for the World Cup final in a couple of years, which is the MetLife Stadium in. I'm putting this in air quotes for the listeners in New York Anyone who knows where the where the metlife stadium is in in new york knows it's in the middle of a marsh 40 miles outside new york, in the middle of absolutely fucking nowhere I mean, it's not even in new york state.
Speaker 2:Is the important thing?
Speaker 1:it's in new jersey, yeah in the middle of a swamp. Basically it's a beautiful stadium, um, I made to my, made me laugh because we were texting about the sort of transport stuff and he was like you know, uh, in our group and he was saying you know, what they should do actually is you could run a really nice river, the ferry could do a a little hop up. And then someone pointed out we just removed the dock, so you know we'd have to, you'd have to build one for it.
Speaker 2:Um, all right, I'm looking at the turnstiles now on a little video that I just found and you are right, they are like, yeah, they're not it's it's spacious no, they're not spacious and they're very like.
Speaker 1:Do do you need, in 2025, the full length for to see in turnstile to stop people jumping over them or getting in? Like? It seems a bit retro to me that maybe there's some law that says that's what you have to have at a football ground, but it's, it's weird. I just saw that. I thought why have we done that like that? You know, when you could, you're building this thing from scratch. Is that the best answer? You know, when you walk into like concerts and concerts and stuff, now and every like big concert venue all over the world has gotten rid of turnstiles entirely and actually just have a bunch of people who scan your tickets and have found that that's actually way faster. It's just have a load of people there for an hour just to scan your tickets. But anyway, we'll see.
Speaker 3:I want to see the guy in Remember that cop writer who made that video where he just like they've put, uh, where's he was in. He was at the Bramley, more dark, on the site of the new ground and he just said where's the, where's the stadium? Oh, they've put, they've put a cone down. I really hope that that someone's kept that cone and it's going to like bring it out. Instead of bringing out the match ball, they bring out the post on the first day. Put it in the fucking centre circle.
Speaker 1:I love that. We've got to wrap up in a second. I want to do predictions for my United, but do we know who's going to the last Goodison game yet? Yeah, it's me Great.
Speaker 2:Lucky you who is our last game. I mean that is well set up for a last day of the season. Everton lose to Southampton.
Speaker 3:They'll still be on nine points and they'll have to like they're on course for getting the worst ever total and it's like well, here comes Everton.
Speaker 1:Yeah, have it All. Right, let's do. We'll play man United in a couple of days, which we haven't talked about at all. We're not really going to talk about it, honestly, but we are going to do predictions. It's at home. It's the early game, 12.30 on Saturday. Adam, what do you think? Everton, man United not what it used to be.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I mean, united are terrible, um, objectively terrible. Like they have this idea that, because we all grew up seeing them, that like look how they're underperforming like they're not. They're actually an objectively awful football team, um, and we're, you know, on the up, um, uh, so we're gonna lose. Um, we're gonna lose two, lose 2-0, because United always get a result against us, because they are our bogey team Whenever they need a result. They just absolutely twat us 4-0 in Ruben Amirim's only notable win and they battered us 3-0 at Goodison last year. So we're going to lose 2-0.
Speaker 2:I can't believe I'm adopting the persona of the positive one, but I think we're going to win 2-0. I can't believe I'm adopting the persona of the positive one, but I think we're going to win 2-0, because I think I mean man United. I don't know what their injury crisis is like now, but at the weekend they basically had to list a subs bench was Victor Lindelof and then a load of randomly generated player names, like literally between the rest of the, obviously the nine subs, they had Lindelof and then eight people who had never made it, never played a minute in the premier league. So they are like you think injury ravage doesn't doesn't describe it. I don't know if they'll have anyone back, but you know that team is not a good team and if you're asking them to play essentially another full 90 minutes, you know that's Casemiro and players that probably can't like are not in a position in their careers where they can do that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I think we'll win 2-0, because we're on the up and they're not. Are they playing?
Speaker 2:this week I'm trying to see.
Speaker 3:No, they're not. They're not automatically I believe. Okay, they are, Because that would be the injury point is profoundly important we're also playing Saturday at half 12 UK time as well, so obviously it would be Sunday if they were playing Thursday. Good point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good point. Yeah, look, I think we're going to win. Adam, you're totally right about your read of history. I just think this man Utd team, like watching man Utd Spurs game the other day, was like watching those games. You know those games they do every year where Robbie Williams plays and they do like a bunch of celebs against like players who were like 50. It was like watching one of those. I mean, it was like it was horrible, horrible, horrible football from two really bad teams. No confidence, no gu guile, no finesse.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think man united they don't have very good players. Their players are mediocre, most of them are injured and I think, tactically, amarin is hopelessly naive. He plays. He plays what? Because here's the problem with playing one way Everyone knows how you're going to play every single time because you've made it. Your whole thing is you're going to play this way. He plays without a central midfield, so it's like, well, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what else you're going to do. If you're Everton or however you play, you're going to go. Okay, we're going to exploit that, and they just get taken to pieces every time.
Speaker 2:On the central midfield question. I know we need to wrap up, but a very quick, prompt question. Decore is back from suspension. Do you bring him back in or do you go with the team that played against Palace?
Speaker 1:I would keep the team that played against Palace. I I would keep the team plays against.
Speaker 3:Palace. I would. I don't think he will.
Speaker 2:I think he'll bring Decore back in, but I do would like him to stick to the team against Palace because what I, I would do, what I, you know, I don't know what he will do, but what I would actually do is I think you do both you, I think you play Decore next day as a as day, as a as uh in the two and then you get alcaraz. Um, you play alcaraz in the 10 because I think that gives us more going forward and I think also decoray's energy in that midfield. To the austin's point about them not having a central midfield, I think you just you tear those pieces by having decoray just run around in there, because for all of like, you know, we've been harsh on decoray this season and I think he is not the player he used to be. He still has the incredible energy to get around the pitch. So I think deploying that in the central midfield might not actually be a bad idea.
Speaker 1:No, I can see that. And also you want to use your subs because you can't even bring Garner and Iribunna on at the right time and really run them ragged. The key is that they're gonna have casimiro and, uh, bruno fernandez and in the middle of midfield. Now you've got to be able to take that to pieces. Fernandez is a great player, but he can't hold a midfield down. And casimiro, I mean my oh my. Are they in trouble with him? 300 000 pounds a week for another two years? I mean that's, that's pretty brutal. So I think we'll win. I think we'll win 2-0. Let's see Anything else for anything else before we sail the ship home. All right, well, thanks for listening. Follow us on Spotify, apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. We are there. We'll be back next week and, yeah, happy times. Come on, you boys.