Blues Brothers Everton Podcast
Blues Brothers Everton Podcast
Special - Why Moyes is right for Everton
It looks like David Moyes will be returning to Everton. Is he the right choice? Austin and Adam discuss.
Welcome to episode I don't even think we're going to number it of the Boys Brothers Everton podcast. We're doing a special episode, first time we've ever done this. I don't want to say celebrate it's unfair because he's, I think, a good human but mark the end of Sean Dyche's tenure as Everton manager. It's just me and Adam today. I'm Austin always here, or usually always here. Andy and Ben are on a flight and Andy's working, so he couldn't make it. So me and Adam are going to kind of give our thoughts on this. We're recording it just after the Peter game, which Everton won 2-0, so we're in the fourth round of the cup, which is some good news. Adam, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Yeah, just finished watching the game and just had a. You know, got a long day at work and etc. But yeah, I'm good, Thank you.
Speaker 1:How are you, I'm very well. So I think when we all woke up this morning at different times I think you know we were all sort of texting last night about how you know it's. Obviously you know Dyches can have another couple of games and certainly his press conference, which I think was on Tuesday, didn't really. I mean, I actually thought it was quite a good press conference. That was a day after we recorded our last pod or two days after, where we sort of said, right, he's got to go, and I actually think he was pretty good and pretty honest. Actually I was kind of impressed. I still think he should get fired. Statue. I was kind of impressed. I still think he should get fired.
Speaker 1:But I don't think any of us today were expecting to kind of see the news that he he's he's been sacked and it came out, you know, three hours before. It was like 4 30 I think, uk time, three and a half hours before we kick off in an fa cup game, which is weird. It's very effortless, you know, to do it in that kind of bonkers way. Um, I guess first Christian right decision. I mean, I kind of know your answer to this, but yeah, it was the right decision.
Speaker 2:I think the last couple of Two of the last three podcasts we've done have been centred around Daish and obviously the last one we did a few days ago was where we talked at length all five of us about it's time to go and it's the right decision. I think it's fair to say like not many of us expected it today or maybe in the circumstances in which it's happened. But, yeah, absolutely the right decision. The football's been really really poor and the stats that have sort of backed up a lot of what people say about Deitch and myself included in the past about how he's been relatively successful at Everton. They've dried up this season. I might end up going on a bit of a long stat rant here.
Speaker 1:Everyone who listens to this has got that button on their podcast app where they can fast forward 30 seconds.
Speaker 2:I'm going to. I've done a little bit of prep before this, um, you know, for a change, um and um, it really is a change. So people are thinking well, how does? How is dice, like you know, compared to our previous um few managers. So he's he's got the third worst percentage since Moyes at 31%, but he has got the best out of Benitez, lampard and himself.
Speaker 1:You're talking about win percentage.
Speaker 2:Here Win percentage, yeah, so at 31%. By comparison, lampard had 26% and 24%, sorry and Benitez had 26% and Dyche has come in at 31% across all competitions. Obviously, he's been in for roughly twice as long as those two, so it's worth taking that into account. We've also had, during his tenure, we had the second, we were joint second for the most clean sheets at home. Uh, during the 2023-24 season, um, but, and we conceded, given our position, we only conceded 94 goals in the 78 premier league games that he took, took control of. So 94 and 78 isn't awful, but that that that sort of sums him up of what he's been like. Like, defensively, overall, things have been, you know, very, very good, I'd say um, but, um, attacking wise, it's never, ever been, it's never been positive in terms of like stats, of goals scored, um, so, uh, we've, uh, we only scored.
Speaker 1:so, dice, dice's team only, ever only, scored 76 goals in how many games, games, yeah so just, I mean just on that one point, right, you've got uh, you know, 94 goals conceded in 78 games, 1.2 goals a game, and you're scoring slightly less than one goal a game, right. So so, as my american friends like to say, the math don't math right, like you you are. That is not. You cannot, literally cannot, be successful with those numbers, because you are going to lose most games.
Speaker 1:And particularly the fact that those numbers are so close is kind of interesting because it just shows, it evidences something I think we've all experienced with dice, which is it's always in the margins, yes, it's always on a knife edge and you know he might just get you there, enough maybe, but it's, you're always so close to the edge. Whereas actually even I won't even say great teams, because we're not trying to be a great we'd love to be, we're not realistically trying to be a great team, effective teams aren't going to be like that right, they're going to have. So it's not even. It was like if you were conceding a goal every two games and scoring a goal every game, you go okay, right, that's pretty successful. So he's actually not quite good at either of them. To make it make sense, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:I think if you were to take like the, obviously we got 48 points last season. So obviously, what 48 points last season? So obviously what was happening last season um, because you know that's a, that's a mid-table, um, a mid-table quantity so what was obviously happening last season was when we, if we take, you know, five games that we lost, we might be losing two of them by two goals and then the other three by one goal, but when we were winning games, we're only winning by one goal and maybe one of. We're only winning four of them by one goal and maybe one of them by two goals. So we are, we're obviously like, goal scoring obviously has always been a problem, but as Ben said in the last podcast, or Andrew, sorry but said in the last podcast, the moment that you sort of go a goal down and you really struggle to create chances, that's when it becomes a real, real problem and it has been for a long, long time. So, to go back to your question, absolutely Like it's been the right decision to get rid because the football's been really poor.
Speaker 2:But I must caveat and it's easy to sort of, you know, look at what has happened this season and be very frustrated and rightfully so. But it is worth caveating, and Paul Joyce has written a little bit in the Times about this and I've not read the article. I just saw the. He said, you know, in his opinion, dyche did a good job at everton and I'm object. I'm trying to be objective and seeing in in the in the context of the, the um, uh, the environment in which he's had to work. I struggle to disagree with that. Overall Now, this season's been very poor, absolutely, but 48 points last season was very, very good.
Speaker 2:You know, the season before the last second half, when he took over in January, we were going down under Lampard and he, you know, kept us up on the last day with that 1-0 against Bournemouth and obviously comfortably kept us up by 14 points on the table, but you know, 22 points in reality.
Speaker 2:So you know, I suppose we need to remember like he's's done a good job, but the time has been right for him to go, because the stats show that all the good stuff that we had last season around you know we talked about, like the xg and the difference between the xg and the goals we scored, and how daisha's plan wasn't necessarily always manifesting itself on the pitch last season in terms of the goals scored, but there's no denying the fact that 15 goals scored in 19 Premier League games and not having a shot on target against Bournemouth at all. And then what? Was it? The 81st minute or something against Forest. The stats aren't lying now, you know, um, the stats aren't lying now, um, and he's produced this narrative of, like that, uh, he is that everton are, um, you know, punching above their weight and everything's about mentality and things like that, and and I think the the relationship um with the board has obviously, uh has obviously broken down and you know, obviously, I know you want to talk about a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I think we definitely. I definitely think there's a lot in in how everton have kind of announced this which tells us what's going on. I think, just to wrap up the kind of stats point, I think that one of the things we've talked about and I think I've become a great believer that really I want to now judge football teams and managers by the fundamentals, more than results, which might sound silly, but, and of course, over the over a season or some period of time, results are what matters. But you know, martin has always used to say this and actually I've come around to thinking he's right that because if you're, if you're doing the right things, if you imagine a team that's getting a high xg for low xg against, but you know, go through four games where they're unlucky, refereeing decisions, players missed chances, whatever you really want to kind of ignore that.
Speaker 1:Everton have lived in the opposite. And there was, there was a stat, you know, jamie carragher, I think. I think jamie carragher may have been the nail in the coffin because so many people paid attention to his monday night football thing which is like just completely like just it was very jamie carrigan's a class act and and secretly obviously at evertonian. So you know, like you know, he was classy about it, but he basically destroyed daish. And there was this stat on there which, just in case folks haven't seen, they, they, they had this brilliant graphic which showed visually the number of goals from open play for teams, all teams, in the Premier League, since the start of last season. So season and a half of data. It's a valid sample, and Everton had not only the lowest at 25, I think it was but the next highest was double. It was West Ham.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was.
Speaker 1:And then everyone else was essentially in a curve, you know where, like obviously I think it was like Tottenham were top, I think, or maybe Liverpool, and they scored like 100 on, so like they were double West Ham, but like we were in a category of our own, completely uniquely. Outside that, and that takes into account, you know, arsenal would score a load of goals from set pieces. So it's that really like you look at the fundamentals and you go, it was not working. You know you could just absolutely tell.
Speaker 1:Now, on the point you moved on to, like the board relationship, I think interesting, your sort of thoughts on this added that there's lots of ways you can phrase these things right. People leave by mutual consent or not, they are thanked for their service or not. If you look at the club statement, which was two paragraphs, and then the briefing, particularly to the times, which was basically obviously had been briefed by the club and the messaging was in the owner's mind, I should given up is a phrase that's attributed to a source and those things like you know, the how these things work is pretty simple.
Speaker 1:You know that is. You know that paul joyce at times is a serious journalist. He's not making that up, that. That is someone on the authority of the freaking group saying that right now. That is, I think, pretty damning. You know they said he's really been relieved of his duties. There was no thank you.
Speaker 1:Clearly there's been an acrimonious split and the thing that I thought was interesting within that was the phrasing of it was it was phrased, been phrased a couple of different ways in different articles, and it's probably a difference based on who's briefing them.
Speaker 1:Honestly, on one hand, you've got a message that says the owners believe that dyche basically gave up, uh, which doesn't feel like him honestly, but there's a reason they're saying that, whatever it might be. There's another message that's in some of the other coverage, which is dyche believed he'd taken the club as far as he can, which I think is probably essentially something we'd all agree with. Right, and you can imagine those conversations that have happened the last couple weeks where they're going look, this is going to get better and he's basically saying, look, I'm doing the best I can. This is how I know how to coach Premier League football and no, I'm not going to do it particularly differently, right, but he doesn't want to or he's not capable of it, as Ben's kind of pointed out. So I know your thoughts on that are, but I read that as kind of like yeah, like this has come to a head, I think, pretty sharply in the last sort of 48 hours yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Um, I think the freaking group are always going to come in and want to show their intent, and I imagine what that's looked like is, you know, sat down with Dyche when they took over and gone. Look, we're going to give you time, we're not going to come in and swing an axe. But the performances since they've come in albeit, you know, there's only been, I think, three discounting three Premier League games, I believe, since the official takeover. It might be a couple more, I'm not sure, but the performances and the results have not been good. Obviously we've got to think about how much did know, how much did, how much did the availability of Graham Potter have, you know, to do with that and the fact West Ham obviously have won that, won that race, but I think that would have been in their thinking as well, like, can we get someone like like Potter to to come in? And obviously that didn't, that didn't quite work out. So I think the the the point about where you said uh, you know what I said. I, I think I've taken the club or the team as far as I can.
Speaker 2:I think in my, in my opinion, you know, seanice is a very good, very principled man, but I don't think that he's saying I'm not capable of doing this, not capable of making them better. I think he's saying, in line with what he said about, you know, our attacking players and things like that and everything being about mentality and stuff like that, I think he's saying there, I don't think this team are capable of doing better with me, with me in charge, and that is obviously not something that any um owners should be willing to accept for your manager and I think managers always, even like Lopetegui, in West Ham's statement, thanked Lopetegui for his efforts and his backroom staff for all their efforts at West Ham. And he didn't do a good job, but he's obviously been. He's respected enough to be appreciated in the efforts that he's put in, but Dyche has obviously put an awful lot. There's no doubt in that.
Speaker 2:Dyche has been committed to Everton. Whether you want to think that he's done a good job or not is irrelevant. We can all agree on that. He's been absolutely committed. He's been committed to what he wants, what he's wanted to do, whether you know whether that's right or whether that's been the right thing or not. Um. So for him, for the board, not to um deliver any sort of thanks is really, really telling, because that sort the bar has to be pretty low or pretty high, whichever when you're looking at it, for that sort of thing not to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they must be pissed like, pissed off, like you know. I think that and you would, I'd maybe say you know, emotions run high at these times and we've all been angry, but in the long term I hope Dyche is remembered. Finally, I don't want to say like we should, I think I don't. I've looked back at the managers we fired and boy, there's a bunch to pick from. And I can look back at, like Marco Silva for example, and say, yeah, maybe we shouldn't have gotten rid of him, like we were 18th when we did. I understand why we did. Maybe we shouldn't have done. We were 10th when we fired Roberto Martinez, or maybe 12th, we were 18th when we got rid of Silva. We were, but it was relatively early in the season and, look, we were not in a good spot. But if you look at how he's got Fulham playing now, you can see the fundamentals were like this guy knows how to coach football teams and so probably a mistake.
Speaker 1:Others are right, and I don't think we'll look back and say we shouldn't have got rid of Dyke, even if we get relegated, which I think is very unlikely, but even if we do, I don't. I think the reason, but let's see, if you look at the, the numbers, the fundamentals of the team are bad. But I hope he's remembered with a lot of respect because I think he's taken on a job with an awful lot of pressure. He's taken a mountain of shit. You can't even imagine the chaos that has been inside that club with mishiri and no board and no real ceo and and just no proper decision making, and I think he's carried a lot of water for us and held it together and I think he deserves a lot of respect for that. And you can also say, because we're all smart people, we can hold two ideas in our head at the same time and it's the right time for him to move on.
Speaker 1:You know, and maybe that should have been done a bit earlier. But you know, I understand. I understand both why they've done it now and why they didn't do it before now. So maybe, maybe we'll come to go. We should have been. The club should have been a bit better to him on the way out, I think, maybe than today's statement did. I think he deserves a bit more than that. But if there's been a falling out and he has, you know, been- you know, and he has sort of burned some bridges.
Speaker 1:then you know, obviously emotions are a little bit raw today when someone's writing that yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:I think it's fair. I think it's a shame that the freaking group have not, you know, maybe represented everton football club in there in the way that sean dyche probably deserves to be thanked, rather than how they personally have felt about it. I think there's a, I think there's that element missing, because I think you're absolutely right, I think, um, it is you know the two, the two things of it's now. It's right to move on now, but we appreciate the fact that it's very likely that we would not be a premier league club without Sean Dyche having been Everton manager, particularly for the remainder of that 22-23 season.
Speaker 1:I suspect transfers played a bit of a role in this, because people scratch their heads and go timing. It's like, well, Graham Potter, it may be that triggered it. I don't know, We'll never. I mean, maybe we will know one day. I'm not convinced that there was some like Everton were desperate to have him. I don't think he would have been a good choice. I think he in the long term, I think he'd have been a very good choice. But if you were making the decision we debated this the other day, you would debate right now. I think he'd be the right person to drop it in the summer. But you know, I'm not totally convinced about that and that being the sort of trigger. But it's possible that transfers played a part and hearing from agents and players that the uncertainty didn't know that if you were a player you absolutely would not sign forever for a club where the manager is about to be fired, right that is a profound impact on your career, that the fact that the last guy picked you as he was heading out the door, you know.
Speaker 1:So I think that they, they do want to do business in january and you can see, you know that, that having had an effect. Um, I guess let's talk a little bit about what's next. Mourinho's ruled himself out, which means, by the way, that Everton definitely weren't interested in him, because that's the only. You know. Jose Mourinho, who I love dearly but is an absolute narcissist, you know him clearly knew that he wasn't going to be asked and therefore, just you know, has had his people. Brief that he's ruling himself out, which is fine from smart, from his point of view, moyes is the overwhelming favorite. How do you feel about that? If Moyes gets a, you know, let's say, a two and a half year contract or something?
Speaker 2:I mean I'm looking at the possibility of Moyes coming back through the lens of, like, seeing us play the best football of my life, just being an Everton fan. You know I'm 34 and I was 12 when Moyes took over and then he was there for those 11 years and we played some fantastic football and were by far the most successful time of my life. So I suppose I'm looking at it sort of through that lens and in the context of where we find ourselves, which is at a time when we're fighting relegation for the third season, third season in a row, notwithstanding, obviously, last season when we avoided it comfortably, but we were fighting relegation. For the most part. Moyes knows the club. It's very different, obviously, since he left 12 years ago but he will provide, I think, the stability that we need and there'll be a lot of people still at the club who have worked with him before. And if he works in the same way that he did, where he likes to have a lot of control over things, I think that's right. Famously, he never to have that a lot of control over things. I think that's right, you know, famously he never. I mean this was certainly true up until about 2009. I'm not sure about after that, but he famously never, ever signed a player for Everton that he never personally had watched in the flesh. So I mean he went over to Belgium about six or seven times to start to look to watch mauram fellaini play for standard liege, for example.
Speaker 2:Um. So that, and there's no reason to believe that moise has ever, like you know, changed in that regard and he comes with, you know, having done objectively a good job at west ham and obviously west ham wanted to go in a different direction in terms of um, you know, the, the fabled or, in my opinion, mythical West Ham way of playing a different footballing style. So, and you know, they tried that with Lopetegui. It didn't work. They're now bringing in Potter to try and do the same thing.
Speaker 2:But Moyes, objectively, did a good job at West Ham, you know he did a good job at, he did an alright job at Sunderland. So that became too difficult and Moyes will obviously play better football and be able to do a better job with these players and obviously, like you said, we'll have the possibility of making some signings as well, which he'll be, you know, already have a good idea about the sort of making some signings as well, which he'll already have a good idea about the sort of players that Everton will do. And also, there's no way that he's not been keeping tabs and looking at us carefully and probably watching our games back multiple times over the past few since he left West Ham, you know, over the season, so he's probably known that the right hand's on the wall. You're on mute, by the way, austin, if you do want to contribute.
Speaker 1:This is why you're here, Ad, I do so. Do you want to get excited? Let me get you excited. Let me give you some David Moyes manager stats. Oh, there we go. Points per game at Everton 1.5. Yeah, Points per game at man United, where he got fired for being shit 1.7, which is higher than every manager they've had since. Wow.
Speaker 2:Wild.
Speaker 1:And then first spell at West Ham, 1.2. Second spell at West Ham again got fired recently 1.5. And our league placements with David Moyes as manager starting 2002-2003. Seventh, 17th, rope you on that fourth Champions League 11th, 7th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th, 7th. Do you remember the time when the guardian football weekly used to have a joke where seventh was called the everton cup?
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, and and it's like oh, I mean, we were like offended by that. Take me back. Oh, my god, which limb do you want to exchange for the joke? The joke being that we always finish seventh. The joke and that was under David Moyes. And it's interesting because I haven't watched a lot of West Ham, I mean, and I say that I've been to their stadium four times, but you sat so far away you can't fucking see them anyway. So I don't, like I watched a lot of football in the Moys as well, like as you did. Dozens and dozens and dozens. I mean, I was a season ticket holder for that entire time, so you know, dozens and dozens. Again, I don't remember us ever having a problem with this style of football.
Speaker 2:No, I remember it a little bit.
Speaker 1:I remember it a little bit, I remember it a little bit, Because the reason I say that is sorry, I want you to carry on, but like, because that's the West Ham fans complaint is the style of football. And it's interesting because I'm like, well, we're not, like, we're a bit. Everton fans are a bit double headed on this because we've got the whole school science thing, but then the tippy-tappy Roberto Martinez stuff drove us nuts too, so we're not good.
Speaker 1:You know we don't. We're not like as Allardyce. Sam Allardyce had us finished eighth. If it was entirely a results game, he'd still be our manager now. I think you know so we do care. I don't remember us caring, when he was manager, of being a problem. So when he left it was like he was going to man United, like it was like. You know. It wasn't like we were pissed, you know so. But the West, the West Ham fans, are like that was the reason that he's not their manager anymore. It's the fans hated the style of football.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, that's was never, never sacked. Let's. Let's remember he, his contract ran out and the board decided to go in a different direction. Um, no, I, I only remember a little bit. Um, I can't remember what season, what season it would have been. You know about during the season that we came 11th in between that, like after that fourth or something, and there might have been a bit of complaints around the style of play. Spagel play, then I seem to remember it, but it would have been in me, very, very fleeting. And let's remember, like some of the, some of the Spalpe, then I seem to remember it, but it would have been very, very fleeting. And let's remember some of the football we used to play.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know like Well, the psychology of that season would have been tricky as well, wouldn't it? Because we finished fourth. I mean, that was a funny end to the previous season, because that was where we played in sandals against Arsenal on the last day of the season and lost 7-0. No, I never forget that. But we finished fourth. We had the real disappointment of the Villarreal Champions League qualifier. Yeah, totally. We didn't get into the Champions League proper and then you go and finish. Obviously our points per game was 1.6. When we finished fourth, we went to 1.3.
Speaker 2:We still finished 11th. In the context of now it just seems mad that we, you know, see that, saw that as disappointment, but at the time obviously we did have him finish fourth. Um, I mean, do you remember like the down the left hand side, like some of the football that baines and peon are like played, I mean they would do two fantastic players, but that sort of stuff was coached and tactic that made available through tactics and stuff.
Speaker 2:So Moyes, I think, is but seen by some people as being like a bit of a bit like Dyche, a bit like Aladais, and I really don't think that that's true you know, West Ham shouldn't be the sort of a fair barometer to judge David Moyes and his footballing style, because I think West Ham take the sort of the school of science element of what we sort of some of our fans like to sort of see on our logo, on our Nils-Saturnissi optimum as well. I think some fans take that a bit too far, but I wouldn't say that we're, you know, in the same they take it further than Everton Football Club does.
Speaker 1:That's for sure, Right? I don't think there's. Is there any organization, entity in the world that is less like, behaves a way that's less consistent with its own motto? You know it's like unbelievable. Sorry, carry on. It's just nothing, but the best is good enough. I mean, please.
Speaker 2:Well, it's been, it's been. Uh, well, it's just, yeah, it's been. Um, yeah, it's just been awful, like, obviously fair to say that we have not lived up to that motto whatsoever, um, in the past eight years or so. Um, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2:I said a few weeks ago on the last podcast, a couple of podcasts ago, I thought Moyes would be the person that would likely come in if it weren't Graham Potter, and I said at the time I'd be happy with it. And I'm even more happy now because I think, in a nutshell, he will provide the stability that we need on and off the pitch. He knows the club. He's already got that automatic respect from his tenure of 11 years with us. He knows the Premier League and he will play better. He will play better football and that might take time, but he will play better football and we've seen tonight you know, I know it's only Peterborough and we weren't good tonight, let's be quite clear.
Speaker 2:But just to sort of look at what you can do with the same players and how that can work and if you have the time to play it. And yes, obviously it's League One, a poor League One team, but you just saw the difference in what someone like Moyes will be able to see and how much more tactically flexible he will be, because we played like a 3-5-2 tonight and any time we were on the ball, michael Enko and Patterson were basically off the screen, like if you watched it on TV and our centre-backs had the ball. They were off the screen. Yeah, they were just pinning the wide positions. Yeah, and Branthwaite and O'Brien pushed wide when we had the ball at the back.
Speaker 1:And Len Baines and Seamus Coleman have done that in an hour or maybe a day. Maybe they found out at nine o'clock this morning. Well, they did?
Speaker 2:They probably had. I imagine Baines and Coleman have probably had some sort of compilation made of themselves playing for Everton and just going right, Right, Vitaly, right, right, right, Vitaly, right, you know, spend 20 minutes watch this.
Speaker 1:I want you to do. Do that touchline. If you look up at any point, vitaly, and you're more than four feet away from it, move. Yeah, nathan, same.
Speaker 2:That's the same. That's what Moyes that's. That's the thing that Moyes will bring. He will take those players and he will automatically make us more tactically flexible and he will work better with those sort of players. And he's got some players that he likes. He likes players like N'Jai, because he brought Mohamed Koudous to the club at West Ham. He likes skillful players.
Speaker 1:He likes oh, yeah, you know what's his name morales, and you know manny fernandez. Gerard de la feo. He couldn't quite get it with everton, he couldn't quite break through, but he did want those creative players, you know, yeah, he did yeah, I mean, I mean, uh, yeah, de la feo was um, um, he was martinez, but I take your point like there are.
Speaker 2:There are a good number of flair players that he brought to the club. Steven Pienaar brought him back Two spells with us, of course, yeah, I think I'm personally excited about it, personally very relieved, and I wouldn't have said that we would have got relegated under Dyche. It would have just been an absolute like turd of a rest of the season.
Speaker 1:You know, just looking at this sort of the recent you know we talk about the Guardian joke, you know we joke about Everton Cup finishing seventh Our last few years really are an aberration. I mean, this is the points per game, and thanks ChatGPT for these stats, by the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for my stats ChatGPT earlier too.
Speaker 1:All credit Points per game for managers. I mean a lot of this says we shouldn't have fired these managers, basically. But you know, following Moyes, martinez, 1.56% fired. Koeman, 1.4, fired. Allardyce, 1.4, fired. Marco Silva, 1.4, fired. And Chilotti, 1.5, not fired, not that much better, not that much better than the ones that came before him and that was all like alright, whatever. Then Benitez, 1.2, frank Lampard 1.1, sean Dyche, 1.1. So the last since you know, 2000,. Summer 2001,. And you wonder how different life is if Ancelotti doesn't go to Real Madrid.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, the stadium gets built. Well, it's just like Moshiri, you know. And maybe, if Vladimir Putin doesn't invade Ukraine, which is the other significant thing that happened to us, but you know, like that, you just wonder about that. But these last three managers really have put us through the fucking mill, you know, and and really been poor, and that was not for most of that time wasn't the case, and Moyes's record, I mean my word. You know, if we could get back to finishing fifth and sixth, because the thing I forget.
Speaker 1:I was talking to my buddy pete about this a few weeks ago in new york, like we were in europe most like they had these great trips to go and see us, you know you know as I you know enjoyed saying all the time watch this batter the young boys of burn.
Speaker 2:You know like that was um, yeah, that was martinez, wasn't it? Because that was that year we had like lukaku and stuff yeah, yeah, no, you're right because, like the foundation is, the foundation was laid. Foundation was laid by moise and martinez took that on and we kept. We continued to finish in europe, obviously became fifth in um in martine Martinez's first season, after you know, taking on the reins of Moyes and the fantastic state that he left the club in we had no fucking money.
Speaker 1:then Like this is the thing that's gotten a lot Like when we spaffed a load of money around really was towards the end of Martinezinez's reign, when, when um, you know well, midway through, moshiri took over and we had some silly stuff, but, like all the time through moises time, we had no money and the premier league was pretty competitive. Then it wasn't a joke of a league in 2010 yeah, we, we consistently like punched it.
Speaker 2:we consistently, I suppose me you could argue it's a contradiction in terms, but we consistently punched above our weight under Moyes.
Speaker 2:And of course you've read Soccernomics as well, but you'll know that Moyes is, statistically, at the time of writing I think that book's about 12 years old now but at the time of writing Moyes was one of the few managers to actually have a net positive effect on a team, one of the few managers to actually have a net benefit, a net positive effect on a team. You know there's a couple of, you know being like Arsene Wenger and Sir Alex Ferguson, for example, but you know he's in a quite at the time of writing. He was in a very prestigious bracket and he was a bloody good manager. And obviously you know what better, what better sort of accolade can you have than the greatest manager of all time choosing you to, to take, to take over the biggest club in the world? So, and it's not, it's not like he's stocky, he's not, he's not become like, you know, steve Bruce or Alan Pardew, who were also Premier League managers around there, who now, you know, either can't get jobs or have got jobs in the lower leagues of the football league.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that because in a way, I think he sort of has, but wrongly, like because his you know his record, you know West Ham, you know 13th, 16th and then 6th and 7th, and then they fire him, and then 14th and then 9th, and then they you know, they're obviously in the middle of that they would uh, you know, they would a European trophy towards the end of that last year. Like I think he's, I think he has been seen as a bit of a, I think he is lumped in a bit with Dyche and Allardyce as these sort of dinosaur managers. I think, as you said earlier on, I'm like I think that's completely wrong, like I just don't think he's that at all. Um, and you can maybe think about as, like, since everton and david moyes parted 11 years ago, we've both been lost in the wilderness. You know, I mean like he's gone.
Speaker 1:All he was, man united got fired, rail associate disaster, sunderland shit. I mean that's suddenly that was a basket case and it's a great Netflix show but a terrible football team. And then obviously West Ham I think he's done pretty well, but like Everton have like just been in this period of real instability and then we come back together and it's like. It's like when Fleetwood Mac, like when they finally like no one's arguing with each other and they just get on stage and play and no one's arguing with each other and they just get on stage and play and it's great, and you've got to enjoy it while it lasts you know?
Speaker 1:great analogy. Yeah, just I feel like this is a real, like I'm always I'm overly romantic, but like there's a I, I enjoy the sort of circular beauty of things.
Speaker 1:It's like when we replaced a drissagana gay with a drissagana gay, you know I mean it's like just three years later, like you know, it's like we, of course, that's the he's who can replace him. Well, him, you know so, and you know, of course, like we've been wandering around frustrated for so long because we did under Koeman. I mean, you look at these managers Koeman, Allardyce, Benitez, Lampard in a different way, and Dyche, We've had real problems with how they've done the job. You know, like Lampard, people loved, but the results were terrible. Everyone else we've ended up hating for various reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you made the point in the last podcast around the previous ownership and how there was no semblance of structure to the appointments. You were going, basically, from one footballing style to a completely different one, and then back again, and then back again and back again and you could argue that, absolutely, moyes is not Dyche and he's not Allardyce. He's tactically astute, but we're not going for someone who's going to be able to. He's not someone who's comingically astute, but we're not going for someone who's going to be able to. He's not someone who's coming in and wanting to play some sort of footballing style that these players yeah, yeah, because Tony played management for the U and he's a pragmatist, like he will and this is, I appreciate so much more now is Moyes will change his formation.
Speaker 1:He'll change his players. He'll change his players. He'll put like, he'll do like he is a. I remember him saying this a long time ago about. This is always the great thing about Alex Ferguson. What's Alex Ferguson's style of football? Winning, yes, you know, winning football, and not in the Sam Allardyce. You know, like Alex Ferguson would I mean. You know, like Ferguson would I mean generally played for at the back, sometimes not, but midfield combinations he would change, he adapted. Now he was always attacking, he was always on the front foot. I think Moyes is a bit more cautious than that, but that's, I think, what Ferguson saw in him is. He's someone who approaches a game of football and works out how to win it yeah, yeah, totally, totally yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I feel pretty good yeah, me too, I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thought to conclude, thank you, sean Dyche. You know there's shit in the end, but you know you kept us in the Premier League, so thank you.
Speaker 1:But best of luck. Yeah, we won't build a statue, but we might put one of those little flags in the new ground for you, not one of the big ones, but one of the little ones in the new ground for you. Not one of the big ones, but one of the little ones. That would be appropriate. Alright. Well, our next game is is it next Wednesday, is it the 15th? Whatever that is, against Villa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's Wednesday. Home to Villa.
Speaker 1:Probably, I imagine, moyes will be in charge comfortably before then. I'd be interested to see what we do and also see if any transfer stuff comes up, because the other things for a wrap-up, which we don't need to talk about, but we should mention, is the 12th of january, which is doing some quick math. Uh, maths, sorry, is uh sunday. Uh is uh the day on which clubs will find out and the public will find out any clubs that have been charged with psr breaches, and I think the the word is that everyone's waiting to do any transfers until then. So I think that's going to unblock some stuff. So hopefully we'll have an exciting week next week. Um, yeah, all right, well, good place to leave it. Big day. Uh, we didn't really talk about the game, but we were shit, but we won 2-0.
Speaker 2:Uh and of how we predicted it to be.
Speaker 1:Really it was fine, it was fine and it was good. It was good. Like it's sort of obvious, if you pay attention to the Everton squad, that we should be playing 3-5-2. And they did and it worked okay enough. So well done to Leighton Baines. Seamus Coleman all right, so we'll probably see you next week. Ad, thanks for hopping on this one super quick. Um, uh, thanks for listening. Uh, subscribe uh, apple podcast, spotify, wherever you get your podcast. That's where we are. Tell your everton supporting mates. Spread the word and we'll see you next time.