Almost everyone agrees that Everton's ten point deduction is a crazy overreach by the Premier League. So why did they do it? In this episode, we unpack the politics behind the league's action, and how the specter of Government regulation has them running scared.
We also swear a lot and preview the Manchester United game.
Almost everyone agrees that Everton's ten point deduction is a crazy overreach by the Premier League. So why did they do it? In this episode, we unpack the politics behind the league's action, and how the specter of Government regulation has them running scared.
We also swear a lot and preview the Manchester United game.
Okay, welcome to episode 66 of the Premier League, or a bunch of a, uh, um, let's see. You'll know by now, dear listeners, if I managed to get the bleep in the right place in that, because the last time, last time, I used that word, I didn't. So we'll see, won't we? Uh, everyone's here. Uh, adam's here. How you doing.
Speaker 3:I'm good, thank you, I'm. I'm a phone, I've been, uh, I was ill, um ill last week, including getting into bed on Thursday night after work and just it, fully cloaked in my, in my work, uh, in in work trials and shirt, and then just hallucinating for five hours, which, if you've never hallucinated I mean I've never, I've never done like LSD or shrooms, mom, dad, if you're listening um, but I can imagine that that's what it's sound, that's what it, that's what it's like, because it, unless you've done, unless you've hallucinated, it is really weird and it's very, very difficult to describe what this, this, this intro took a weird turn.
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna lie we're gonna get back to over to him. We're gonna talk about points, the directions and how, the Premier League of Cunts. We'll get there, but, um, I've got to note that. Uh, adam, what did you hallucinate like?
Speaker 3:I think at one point I was like at work and then I was like on a farm, and that's about it as I remember. And that's the point of hallucinations you can't remember, like immediately afterwards, what the fuck happened and it's a bunch of dreams, as in you were awake, right?
Speaker 3:yeah, they're like. It's like. It's like what I imagine tripping would be like, where you're sort of awake but but not asleep, not awake, and sort of some weird hybrid mixed in with like chronic nausea, a banging headache and, um, like terrible shivers and hot sweats. So I don't recommend it.
Speaker 1:It's not very, it's not great no, uh, no, you're not selling it. Glad you're feeling better now. Um, andy, how you doing hi Austin, I'm good.
Speaker 2:Thank you, much better than Adam experience, no hallucinations for me and uh, looking forward to um an hours emitting discussion because, let's face it, it's been a quite few days. Not much has happened.
Speaker 1:I know we were all hallucinating that everything was going all right until that last Friday. Ben, how you doing?
Speaker 4:yeah, I'm good. Uh, you know I spent the last couple of days dig into the uh reports that we're gonna talk about, so, yeah, that's been a joyous, a joyous read. But yeah, other than that, all good awesome.
Speaker 1:Um, all right, so let's dive into it. We're gonna talk a little bit, we are a little bit, we're probably probably quite a lot about the, the points deduction, and look they were recorded. This on, uh, on Tuesday, the announcement made last Friday, a lot of reaction, a lot of anger. Um, you know, obviously, you know we're all fans, I think so no surprise what any of us feel about it generally. I think you know you've seen from the football world a sort of shocker the how the Premier League have behaved. So you know we're not gonna go round, or we're not gonna start, at least just, you know, expressing the fact that we all think this decision's ridiculous. I think we all know that and it's been said a lot we want to think about. You know some of the context a little bit that maybe hasn't been talked about a ton elsewhere. And then what you know what happens. You know what happens from now. So, ben, I'm gonna start with you because you know, without not asking you to sort of get into the sort of sourcing of this, but you've got a bit of context on some of the politics around this. That is because you know the decision.
Speaker 1:I think it's worth maybe saying the decision to deduct us 10 points makes absolutely no sense. I mean it's, it's it's not not defendable on the basis of any, you know, logic or or rationality, and no one can, no one's even attempted to. I mean, the Premier League have not even attempted to explain, you know the why they feel that this is appropriate. Because you know it's the biggest point, it's the biggest penalty ever imposed by the Premier League on any club for anything. So what the Premier League are saying is that, also, over spending my 19 million pounds is the worst thing that any Premier League club has ever done.
Speaker 1:Um, wouldn't be a very mind. Six of them tried to leave the league. Um, so you know, obviously that's not true and they don't really believe that. So you go. Well, why the hell are they doing this then? And it's the political context that is. You know, um is really, uh, is really key. So, ben, I'm gonna hand to you now and just give us a little bit of background, what's been going on with Westminster and the right potential regulation and all of those things, and that really does it. You know, that's. That's really the thing you've got to understand, to understand what the fuck the yeah, totally.
Speaker 4:And um, to start that, I'm going to jump back a little bit. Uh, you know a couple of a couple of years now to um, to when the Super League sort of uh failed to get off the ground. When that happened, there was a? Uh, a very swift move by um the government, in recognition that they couldn't or didn't want to see it was Boris Johnson's government at the time um, they didn't want to see a situation where Premier League football, football, the football pyramid, was potentially at risk of um being taken away by a group of clubs who were making unilateral decisions like that. So what they proposed, or what they announced, was what was called the fan-led review. So this was a, a review into lots of different things about football. It was, it was. It covered uh regulation, it covered stuff around um, community assets, owners and directors, tests, loads, loads of different stuff.
Speaker 4:The fan-led review uh was led by a member of parliament who's a conservative MP, called Tracy Crouch, who is a full declaration friend of mine, um, who is a FA qualified coach great female footballer actually, um, and also probably used to be the sports minister, one of the most well qualified people to run um this, this review, the review published in November 2021, and one of the recommendations of the fan-led review was that there should be established an independent regulator to essentially ensure that clubs in the Premier League and across the football pyramid were abiding by the rules, regulations, governance, that they should be, that they were following the rules, because the belief was that there was a that that might not necessarily be the case in the current system where, essentially, you have the Premier League operating as executive and legislature. Right, the Premier League is made up of other Premier League clubs and therefore it's in the interest of the Premier League as the organization to look after the clubs because they are a part of themselves. Like the Premier League, don't want to piss off all their clubs by overly regulating them, because then the super-leaders right. So that's like. That's the backdrop.
Speaker 4:So what then has happened is, in response to the fan-led review, announcing or recommending an independent regulator, which the government announced their intention to take forward, the Premier League now feel under a heck of a lot of pressure to demonstrate that they can actually regulate right. So what we're seeing now and we're seeing it with you know, we'll talk about man City's charges, but what we're seeing with man City, what we're seeing with Chelsea and what we're seeing with this Reviton is, is, is is the death throats of the Premier League desperately trying to prove that they don't need this independent regulator because look, look, government, we can do it ourselves. Look how harsh we were on Everton. So we are at a.
Speaker 4:We are to Austin's point. There is absolutely no way. This is the most serious thing a Premier League club has ever done in terms of breaching regulation. Not a cat in hell's chances. This is the most serious thing that Premier League club has done. But we've been and this is very evident we've been unlucky enough slash dumb enough to do it at precisely the moment. The Premier League need to demonstrate that they can regulate themselves, and that's the political sort of element of this. There are lots of people in rooms of the Premier League going we need to show we can regulate, otherwise we're going to get regulated, we're going to get regulation forced upon us, and that is like the. That's the political backdrop that I think is worth understanding when we think about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, and I think you know there's a I've been thinking about this a lot and, and you know you can sort of see that they've. You know you're seeing life, sometimes people over correct and over compensate and it's quite possible that actually the way this plays out ends up reducing the Premier League's credibility, because now the independent panel, there'll be an appeal. We'll get to that in a second. We'll talk about you know what the potential implications that are.
Speaker 1:So the point reduction might be reduced, but the Premier League asked for 12 points. That's the thing the Premier League can't change is that they believe that Everton's breach 19 million pounds one breach of the rules, was worthy of a 12 point deduction. So I think, adam, I think maybe you did the math on this when we were talking in our group chat but if you, if Manchester City, found guilty of 115 point deductions, then you've got to, you've got to deduct them. You know nearly 1500 points, I mean, which would roll over seasons, a season so they'd get relegated. It'd be quite beautiful. They'd get relegated every year for around 12 years and eventually, eventually they'll start coming back again. So it obviously just it feels like in an attempt, ben, as you say, to make a short term point, they've actually created a rod for their own back.
Speaker 4:Yes, and the other problem is as well is that they have created a situation by letting this stuff go for so long they're past the point where they can meaningfully do anything about it because, okay, they recommend a 12 point deduction, we get a 10 point deduction.
Speaker 4:Chances are that goes down on appeal, like they're in a situation now where we're certainly going to be advocating for similar punishments to every other club that's breached any sort of rule in the last 12 years. So the problem was, is that they were so they say fair, because they thought they didn't need to be to enforce it because, you know, there wasn't the specter of independent regulator coming over the hill. So they were. Incredibly, they say fair about enforcing it in the first place. And what the problem is now is that they're now over correcting because they're in this desperation mode.
Speaker 4:But when you've been so, they say fair, you have, you have so many different charges that have built up and built up, and built up, and that's how man City, that's how the Premier League ends up charging man City with 115 different things. That's, that's the absurdity of it. So they are and I have fuck all sympathy for them because they've brought this entirely upon themselves. But the Premier League have left themselves in a really dumb situation because of their actions previously, when they they basically didn't care about enforcing this stuff. You could essentially do what you liked and, knowing that no one was really going to get on to you about it. And then and that's great until it there's a problem and the Super League was the catalyst that created the problem and now they're dealing with we're all dealing with the consequences of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, andy, what's your thoughts and reflections on this, having sort of lived in the last, you know, lived through this in the last few days?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like everybody else, I was genuinely shocked when the 10 points were announced. I just didn't think in a month Sundays, that we'd be hit with anything like that sort of sanction. What Ben said about the political sort of aspect of it is really fascinating because I mean just to put some some meat on the bone of. Of, however, to 19.5 million pound breach relates to a club entering administration in 2009,. When the government went into administration, so they literally went out of money, went bust, entered into administration, 80 jobs were lost from that football club and that only attracts a nine point penalty.
Speaker 2:So the idea that Everton's misdemeanor is worse is is simply the more that I've thought about it since Friday. It just gets more and more ludicrous. I agree with what's, as previously been said, the Premier League. I just digging themselves a bigger hole here because because they, whatever happens to Everton going forward and we can come on to that in a bit when we talk about a possible appeal and forward the Premier League, I just that they're like a sort of running around with their pants on fire because they, they, they give the impression.
Speaker 2:Somebody said in another podcast that football for all its multi billion pound, you know money, all the money that goes through it and it's a multi billion pound sport and business industry. It's run really, really badly, and this episode demonstrates to me that that's entirely the case, because it, just as every day that goes by, the 10 points is is utterly completely ludicrous. And somebody got buckled on the echo podcast made the point that if Everton finish six places low in the league because we've, if this 10 pointed auction sticks and Everton finished six places low in the league than we would have done that's effectively a 12 million pound fine as well, because you lose two million pounds for every place you finish in the league. So there's that aspect to it as well which I hadn't even thought of. Every day that goes on there's some sort of new aspect of it that either you think of yourself or somebody else mentions to you, and I'm just I mean Ben's ever done.
Speaker 2:Everton have just, I mean, the wrong place at the wrong time, as as is, as is, you know, so often the case with Everton we have, we have, we have properly ever to.
Speaker 4:This is what we've done.
Speaker 2:And what, what, sorry. What one thing as well is is is what? What are the mitigating factors that I thought would surely help the club is the fact that they've been working with the Premier League for two years and being completely honest and open and, you know, not withholding any documents or anything like anything like that, and that doesn't appear to have made one jot a difference at all in terms of the punishment we've got. I mean, some of man cities charges actually relate to obstructing the investigation. It's not just financial jiggery, pokery, it's deliberately obfuscating the investigator to reprocess.
Speaker 1:Yes, which makes it makes the context worse that they've decided that Everton who complied, and essentially a difference of opinion, right, like I mean, that's what it comes down to and to some degree, okay, the Premier League get to make the rules, like in a way, like that you know, in the end they win. But the fact that you can have a situation where a club complies or cooperate with an investigation, which the League acknowledged that Everton did, and you still say that's worthy of the worst penalty Amongst the many problems with this, gives you nowhere to go when someone doesn't comply, as man City are. We know they've got lawyers trying to tangle this thing up in bureaucracy just to delay it, and I will come to you in a second, but I just want to. I forget Another thing that, andy, you were talking about things that don't make any sense.
Speaker 1:There's a really great point in an athletic article, I think yesterday by Patrick Boylan, about potential, these five clubs who potentially can sue us now, and how can five clubs sue us for getting relegated? Well, I'm well, I'm going to stay up if Everton got relegated. Well, interestingly.
Speaker 2:Well, just on that point, nottingham Forest are one of the clubs. Well, they've not been relegated, they've never been relegated, so how?
Speaker 2:they can now and also the fact again, I am obviously not a lawyer in this instance, but that you know, in the way of the world, that's not going to stop me from having an opinion anyway. The financial breach relates to the 2021-22 season. So Leicester and Southampton? Well, first of all, southampton and Leeds would have got relegated even if Everton had had a 10 point deduction last season. So that's one point, mate, one point there. But you're absolutely right. Only one club would have stayed up if Everton would have got relegated. Is that not true?
Speaker 3:You're referring to the previous. You're referring to the previous season, when it was between us and Burnley. So Burnley are one of the clubs, and if we were, you're right, because the 2021-22 season that's when it ended, that's when the period of financial irregularity has been investigated, that was the end of that period, that's where the investigation has been about to that point, and Burnley obviously were the ones that got relegated, rather than us, because we stayed up by, I think, two points. So if it applied, then Burnley. If you're going to say, like any, what clubs have a legitimate claim, it's Leicester and Burnley, for the last season and the season before, respectively. They're the clubs.
Speaker 3:Forrest got relegated Forrest I mean God knows what the forrest are trying to get after, because they've got absolutely zero credibility in this whole thing and no reason at all to be warranted a claim. So I don't know what they're really thinking about. But the one and then Southampton and Leeds, they've again, they've got none at all. I mean, leeds would have leaped frog does last season, as would have Leicester, but Leeds would have gone down anyway, so it didn't really make a difference. I mean, if you want to talk about the two million quid that they would have got by going one place above, okay maybe, but if we got the 10 point deduction last, year, leicester would have stayed up right.
Speaker 1:That's basically what happened. That's the one that would make any sense is you say? And if we've got the 10 point deduction the year before.
Speaker 4:Burnley would have stayed up. But the problem with this is that you're not. You can't project the 10 points onto a specific season because the 10 point deduction, if it remains, that is for a breach across multiple years. So one of the things you can't just go well, if that had been applied that season, we'd have stayed up because, like well, but it wouldn't have been, because we can't be charged for two years ago because the charges cumulative for breaching it over three years.
Speaker 4:And this, I think, is why, again, no lawyer. This is why I think those clubs are gonna have a real issue proving like harm and causality, because, like, what is our overspending over those three years actually worth in points terms? How do you quantify that? You can't quantify like, oh well, it's worth X number of points, it's worth X number of points this year and Y number of points that year. No, it's a fine of 10 points for behavior over three years. You can't then go oh well, we're gonna apply five points to that year and three points to that year and two points to that year, and therefore that leads to this Like that's. The commission literally doesn't do that. It's 10 points for a behavior over a three year period. I don't see how you can then reasonably pass that out to identify specific cause, specific effects from that deduction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and especially given that.
Speaker 4:But also we got fucking worse because of all that spending the idea that we bought Neil fucking Mopey.
Speaker 3:I mean. Here's all I mean. This is what evidence I mean. For me this would be evidence like defense, because those clubs, on the face of it, they didn't lose out. They lost out because they got relegated in our expense, as they view it. But just before we started the pod, I was checking something, cause I was interested in seeing, like, by that logic, surely other clubs that we took points off could also stake a claim because, like-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like any team, right, Every team-.
Speaker 3:And here's the perfect example Arsenal, in the end of the 2021-22 season which is again reminder, that's the period up to that is being investigated they finish on 69 points, two points behind Spurs. We beat them at home to one that season. So if you wanna talk so like, if you wanna go down that road, arsenal could also have a claim as well, because they can claim that that and then you obviously open up a huge kind of worms about well, we can make a claim because I've been to us and it's just it's not gonna work, and that you can't escape that logical, you can't escape that logical inference that if the relegated clubs do that, therefore other teams get a claim as well, because you can't say relegation is is worse for one team than it is for another team doing something else. It just won't, it's not gonna wash, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so just to sorry, andrew, go on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just another thing I'll add is, again, I don't know if obviously the breach is specifically for the 2021-22 season and it obviously the investigation period is over three seasons, but can any team that suffered outside that three year period have any sort of claim as well? I wouldn't have thought they could, because all these things surely are at the times that the incident directly occurred.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I couldn't say anything. I couldn't see a situation where a club who wasn't who was impacted outside of that window could have any.
Speaker 4:I mean I don't think those clubs have a pretty, have a good claim in the best times, but I also don't think that. I also don't think that, certainly don't think any club impacted outside of that would be. For those of you listening to this, which is all of you, because it's a podcast format, austin has just reappeared with a pizza, so whilst we've been sort of so, we've been sort of host to us for the last two minutes which you may have noticed, you may have not it might have all worked perfectly. No, it's great.
Speaker 2:We should just we should just be an.
Speaker 4:Austin off for future podcasts we could just do this without him.
Speaker 1:It's like that Belgium didn't have a government for eight months and GDP went up by 2%, and I'm usually the one to eat pizza during this podcast.
Speaker 3:So, ben and Andrew, it's your turn next week.
Speaker 4:Yeah, at some point, at some point, I'll eat a pizza during this podcast.
Speaker 2:Good pizza, nothing else, that's a plan I can definitely get on board with.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, totally yeah. So like I think that the whole, the whole that thing's massive, that is sorry, sorry. Austin's just now eating the world the largest pizza pizza.
Speaker 3:By the way, is that a whole pizza as well? Is that an Xbox style slice with a whole like okay?
Speaker 1:I've got a whole pizza, do you want? I mean no, no.
Speaker 3:I mean this is boring for the listeners, but like after the podcast, definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay yeah it's beautiful, made in New York. Pizza on on the Amsterdam and 83rd Street can recommend, ben, please continue. I went there. I went there. Yeah, carry on.
Speaker 4:It's good. It's good pizza. Anyway, enough of the pizza chat, back to either Premier League of Austin, make notes, make notes, make notes, make notes, make notes, make notes, make notes, make notes, make notes, make notes. I wanted to dive into like the report, specifically because I think I'm and I don't say this in some sorts of you know, I'm a very bored man. I actually read the full report, cover to cover, or however many pages of it is there. There are and it has some interesting stuff in there A couple of things that I want to talk about to just dispel a couple of myths, but also a couple of things that just kind of don't make sense about the justification of it, about the how they've arrived at the 10 points.
Speaker 4:So let's say two things very quickly. One there is this thing floating around that Everton fans keep saying and we've put it on a banner for the Manchester United game that the panel says, or the report says, that we incurred no sporting advantage, and that's not true. What the report says is that they don't believe Everton's breach was a cynical attempt to gain a sporting advantage. But they do say that any breach of PSR, the profit and sustainability rules, any breach automatically infers, can be inferred to bring with it a sporting advantage, because you are literally just spending more money than your competitors, right? So that form naturally brings with it sporting advantage. So the report doesn't say we got no sporting advantage. The report says there is a sporting advantage to spending too much money. Everton didn't do it on purpose, it wasn't a cynical, deliberate attempt. But there is a sporting advantage because we just spent more money, right? So that's part of that. For a second.
Speaker 4:The other thing I want to mention is the way they reach 10 points, because it's weird they don't ever actually end up justifying it. But there's a bit in the report where they talk about what the Premier League asked for. So in the EFL there is essentially a calculation that is done, which is that the baseline is six points. So you start at six points, you get six points for any breach, however small, and then every additional £5 million brings with it a one point additional, a one point additional reduction, right. So now the committee say that they rejected that, that they don't use that as the framework. They don't use anything else as the framework. By the way, there's no other contextual basis for how they get to 10 points. It's literally like finger in the air and dartboard stuff. But it is sort of convenient that the Premier League suggested a framework which, if you do the maths 19.5, 20, you're close enough right gets you to a 10 point deduction. The committee say we're not following that framework. Oh, but coincidentally we've also arrived at a 10 point deduction.
Speaker 4:And then the final thing I would say and this is the odd thing about the mitigation stuff Some of the mitigation stuff I think is fairly weak from our point of view. Like there is this whole discussion about player X, who was, you know, the player who was arrested, and then we didn't pursue some money where we could have done, but, as the committee sort of notes, that was our choice. Like we could have pursued some money and gained that back, chose not to. So you then can't sort of go well, we need the credit for claiming for not going after said player, and also that we want the credit for X, x million pounds, which is a figure that Everton basically made up and one that really doesn't make any sense. Really doesn't make any sense is that one of our mitigations was that we had an agreement in place with USM services limited, which is Uzmanov's company, to do a naming rights for the stadium, which generated 10 million pounds annually, right and that we then, when the Ukraine-Russia war broke out and Uzmanov was placed on sanctions list and that deal collapsed, we got that. We therefore lost the value of that.
Speaker 4:The thing is, that is weird about this right Is they reject this for two reasons. One, they say the agreement hadn't been concluded, which is true, but all of the paperwork was essentially done to demonstrate that it was going to be concluded. But the second reason they give why they reject this is and I'm going to quote directly here because it's important Second, the loss of a proposed agreement, even when that agreement might have been thought likely, is the type of event that businesses experience. It is not something that can stand as diminishing Everton's capability. So what they're saying is they rejected our mitigation because we should have known that Russia might invade Ukraine, which I mean Russia they were fucking intelligence agencies that didn't know Russia were going to invade.
Speaker 1:Ukraine.
Speaker 3:But, didn't Russia let him go to prison as a photography?
Speaker 4:clearly yeah, but like didn't he, barrett Baxendale and Farhad Meshiri are meant to go. Hey, hey, I think.
Speaker 1:I think we should Two people who can't run a fucking football team.
Speaker 4:So my point is that is one particular example of how their justifications to get to 10 points and rejecting the mitigations just a bizarre. It's like and I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can Some of our mitigations are mitigations we try and use COVID. Covid applied to everybody, right? That's not something that's-.
Speaker 2:COVID applied to everybody. And also I'm led to believe that the Premier League have factored in COVID losses into their financial calculations, so the COVID losses are already baked in. So the idea that the club can use COVID as any sort of mitigation is just nonsense.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I think it's worth pointing out. I mean as well, like no one's trying to deny that Everton, you know, shouldn't be punished in some capacity because yeah, yeah, absolutely, we played. You know, we spent a hell of a lot of money and lost an eye-watering amount of money over those seasons, and we deservedly. You know we took a punt and you can. You know it's not an opinion that I have, but an opinion that some people have and you know, fair enough for them to have in it.
Speaker 3:But one thing that people say is like you know, the Premier League is set up in such a way where you have to spend that sort of money in order to try and do it. And you know Spurs are a good example of how you don't necessarily need to do that to break that glass ceiling. And you know Vila, you know getting closer this season to doing that as well. But so no one's saying that we're, you know we don't deserve to punish because we do. It's just 10 points is absolute nonsense. And yeah, it's very you know those reasons that you've given a very, very clear and very clear ban. But there's another one as well with that, you get nine points for going into administration.
Speaker 3:And the whole thing, all the way at all of our deaths.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we could just continue spending and get one fewer points as a punishment.
Speaker 4:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4:The other hilarious thing that you realize from the report is, putting aside the like, the 10 points and the reduction, it does expose how fucking comically badly we've been being run, and I'll give you one example of this. One example In the financial year 2022, which broadly covers the 2021-22 footballing season, right, which, for you know those of you who need to try and keep track of these things that was the season that we started, the season where Ancelotti left and we hired Benitez and we basically and we bought Damari Gray, sold you know a load of players and try and raise some money, right? So we started that season with Rafa Benitez as the manager. We finished that season 16th. Our budget for that season had us finishing sixth. We had, as a club, our financial year 2022 budget assumed that we would finish sixth in the Premier League. Now, putting aside like all of the other stuff, like you could, you would not have found a fucking Everton fan on the face of the planet who thought we were going to finish sixth that season, but that's what our financial planning said.
Speaker 3:I mean maybe I'm playing devil's advocate. I am playing devil's advocate a little bit Like that's not as mad as it actually sounds, based on what's happened since, because we finished 10th under Ancelotti that season and there was, and I imagine, when those financial predict, when those financial forecasts were put together, we were banking on the fact that we would have not banking on the fact predicting for no reason, that who were thinking he would leave, that we would have Ancelotti as our manager. So I agree that sixth will be a bit high, but I wouldn't say it's like it's not an outrageous actually thinking about it, going against what I just my very vociferous. What about two minutes ago?
Speaker 1:Composite right, which beats that point that, ben, you're making that. Look, we just have not been well run and we've ended up with in this. If we were a properly run club, we wouldn't end up in this situation, but we're not the only one who's the idea we're the only club that deserves to be in this situation is absolutely ludicrous. I want to move on a little bit. Everton are going to appeal. I think there's an interesting question which, ben, you posted on Twitter about this, so I'll start with you again.
Speaker 1:Everton, in Everton's submission to the panel, everton basically ended up accepting that there being a breach ever since. That said, it was 7.5 million pounds something and that Everton suggested suggestion was that a financial penalty would be appropriate and if the panel fellow wants to go further than a transfer ban. So Everton actually suggested a transfer ban rather than a point deduction. You tweezing the other day, but actually you thought that a transfer ban would be worse for us than a points deduction. Go into that, because I think I'm not. Andy and Adam. I'm interested in what you think about this because it is probable, let's say on average, if the penalty gets reduced in some way. What do we think our desired outcome? Is there A few points, or do we think a transfer ban is actually better?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So if you offered me three doors right behind, what is it? 10 point deduction. Behind door number two is a transfer ban. Behind door number three is fine, you take the fine. And then I would take the 10 point deduction because I think if you're gonna be like one of my friends, who you know, when this came out sort of text and we're one of our group chats and was basically like, oh, this basically relegates the club and I was I had to point out that it literally doesn't even put us bottom like we're still above got, we're still but burbani on gold wisdoms. So it's like, if you're gonna take a, if you're gonna take a point deduction any season, this is the season to do it, whereas I think a transfer ban, depending on how long it lasts. You have a transfer ban for January. You probably go. Okay, we can probably manage that. Our squad's probably good enough to get us on the table. Then you buy in the summer.
Speaker 4:I think if we're in a situation where there is a transfer embargo, transfer ban, over to transfer windows, I think there's a. I think you're in a lot of you're in a lot of problems there because you're probably gonna. What then players get players wanting to go because you're not gonna be able to improve the side in a way that demonstrates progress. People start sniffing around because they know you need to raise money. So, like in a world where you sell an honor, let's say, and can't replace him and address a gaze a year older and James Kofke is a year older, and someone comes in for a Jared Branth way and you can't replace him and you're playing Michael Keen again, like. I just think a transfer ban is actually far more damaging to our chances of surviving next season than a points deduction in this season is.
Speaker 4:I I would say I'd rather take, putting aside the fact they might get reduced, if the Premier League said, okay, you can either live with 10 points or it's a transfer ban for the next two windows, I'd be. I'd be right, we'll take the 10 points, like because we'll stay, we're gonna stay up regardless. I've got every confidence in that. So I just think you take the pain now rather than extending it over the summer, creating itself a really difficult situation next year. And that's before you get into, like you know, if you, depending on what we're allowed to do, transfer wise because it depends on, like, players that you have on loan with agreements assigned in a cow, blah blah.
Speaker 4:We basically have one first choice winger who is actually ours, which is Dwight McNeill, and then you got Lewis Dobbin or whatever. But Jack Harrison is not ours, dan Juma is not ours, so if we can't sign them, and then we have a transfer ban and they go back like you're literally the point where you're rolling out Lewis Dobbin every week and like I'm sure he's lovely and whatever, but he ain't a Premier League level winger and that's like he's gonna be your first choice because you can't bring anyone in. So I think, yeah, long way of saying I'll take the points. Please don't give us a transfer ban, if you're listening.
Speaker 1:Premier League yeah, the relegation point, you know I think is really important to understand because I saw I mean not the media, generally know what they're talking about on any given subject but you know a lot of, like you know, puts a threat of relegation, which is like I understand why you would say that, because where we end up. But look at the league table, the idea we're not gonna get what we three points behind you know, bournemouth or I think you know two points the idea we're not gonna get, on average, two points more than those teams over the course of the rest of the season, which is all we need to do, is like nuts, like you know, you can see how well, adam, what do you think about the? What do you think about the? Yeah, you know, ever since appeal and what you, given the situation we're in, what you want to see happen, what your ideal, best outcome, real estate outcome is from here yeah, I want to see the club come out, come out fighting.
Speaker 3:I mean, this isn't my line, so but I'll, nick, it is that. I think it was a, I think it was never. It was never Southall, actually who said the Premier League have achieved in doing the impossible, which is which is unite the Everton board and the Everton fans, because you know they've, so the fans are obviously gonna be as vociferous in, you know, in lots and lots of good ways as, and that brings out. You know, we've seen on the pitch how that can change a tide of a game. You know. So, never tackle on Ronaldo, whatever. Yeah, that was how that basically changed our season and the fans can really lift the players. So the fans will come out and do that.
Speaker 3:I think, on that point, a lot of fans have got to be sort of careful about what they put and stuff, because attaching Everton's, attaching the net, like Everton's name, to anything that might be, might land the club in hot water during this appeals process will be something that they'll have to be careful about. And you know, we know we've got a lot. Most of our fans have their head screwed on, but unfortunately, some of the vociferous ones are also the most stupid. But I want to see the board, you know, come out and and which you have done in the state. It was very clear and I think they were absolutely right to say quote we, we look at home with great interest the outcomes of other similar investigations and you know, end quote, which I thought was a real, real good, really, really, really good point to make. How, you know, in these circumstances, you know you might say that you wouldn't usually talk about with the other other other clubs and other other parties and that have other parties involved in similar things, but I thought that was that was that was brilliant, because that really captured, I think, and it's not even what about a really it's a genuine, it's a legitimate point to make.
Speaker 3:Is that about you know, city and and to a lesser extent, chelsea and you know the top, the European City League as well, and yeah. So I want to see the want to see the board, you know, really push for a point, a point, a point, a reduced points deduction, because that's the way to go. I agree with Ben completely the, the idea of a transfer embargo will be, will be, wouldn't be good at all. You know you're talking about if we get like a six-point you know, a six-point deduction in the end. You know that's a couple of wins and and that's you know that that eradicates it. So yeah, it's. It's gonna be interesting, isn't it? On the?
Speaker 1:it's gonna be hell of a really interesting on Sunday yeah, yeah, it's gonna be a bear pit and I love the stuff you know. Shout out to the 1878s check out their Twitter, because there's a bunch of fact that they're handing out corrupt signs to everybody in the stadium.
Speaker 3:I've seen Everton fans say that they're leaving, that they're leaving Barclays as their bank and they're trying to change their mortgage.
Speaker 1:I saw a guy who worked for Barclays who resigned. Yes, I wouldn't do that if I was him, but he was like that's really for them anymore. So we're not good. Look, we're all scousers, spiritually at least, if not, even if two of us aren't literally. But like that is a you don't like you. Just we ought to grudge more than any other people absolutely like wrong us.
Speaker 1:We'll be talking about a thousand years from now, with archaeologists will be piecing together what society was like, and the only thing they'll know is that a football team called Everton were treated unfairly yeah, it is.
Speaker 4:It is the worst. It is like the worst strategic decision anyone's made since Hitler opened that second front right like it is like in terms of bad decisions to have made. It is like picking on Everton fans is like you want to make us the victim.
Speaker 1:Fucking great, like we know, we've got practice, like yeah, so, and I think it's going to be, you know, because one of the things that's going to be interesting is you know the good luck I was, you know, the scariest man United on TV.
Speaker 1:Good luck if, when every single person in the ground is holding up a sign that says the Premier League's corrupt, good luck not having that show up on TV yeah, the world, you know like you got no chance and just and you want and all comes you to sort of finish on this, but just on the sort of dynamics of this, those it's, there's a really fascinating things going to emerge now, of course, because you know Everton are not going to be alone in feeling one, probably feeling that this is unfair, but also in terms of pushing for what happens next, because you got man City, who are, you know, being investigated for 115 breaches. Chelsea self-reported that they believed that, you know, things had happened. There've been payments made that were, you know, outside the rules, and things that the new owners of Chelsea, you know, self-reported that they believe the previous owners of the club had done. That, if your man United or Liverpool or Spurs or any of the top clubs, you are going to want those two clubs, particularly man City, to have the book thrown at them now. So Everton are not going to be without allies in the dynamic of the Premier League. You know, in terms of this now being, you know, being the law and the rules being applied consistently, and the absurdity and this gets back to, you know, the point made at the start the absurdity is they can't now apply it consistently because, even if you say man City a found guilty of half of the breaches, right, they have to deduct them hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of points.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like which. Obviously they're not going to do. They're not going to put man City in the National League, you know, they're just not going to do it. They're not even going to relegate them. It's unthinkable. So they've created a situation where it is impossible for the Premier League to act consistently and I think, overall, for all the you know noise and heat that's been generated right now, I think that's actually a really bad decision by them. I think that they are going to in year, in a couple of years, when all this is played out you know, you could they're going to look back and they're going to see this as a decision they are now trying, they're going to try and extricate themselves from because they actually can't do what it obviously implies the interesting thing?
Speaker 4:sorry, very quickly. The interesting thing is that because the Premier League and the football league are different organizations, they can't actually relegate the anyone to whatever division. All they can do is kick them out of the Premier League, yeah, the football league they're not obliged to take them yeah, and the football league. You could have man City just booted out the league and if the football league go well, we don't want you either. Like, what do they do? Do they just? Do they rock up to like a Sunday Park League?
Speaker 2:It's like an unpopular kid in school. Hi, can I play with you?
Speaker 1:You've got dog and duck FC lining up against Irving Harland, managed by Pep, on the sideline like yeah because, of course, what would happen is if they you know man City get a giant points deduction and get relegated, that's fine. But if they get kicked out of the league, either the if I have to take the main, which they're not just going to give them a Spot in the championship because they, they could, you know they can't increase the size of the championship, they, you know you end up in an AFC Wimbledon situation. Or, of course, they do a deal where they say, okay, four teams come up, you know, like, fine, but they're obviously not going to do that. Just, geopolitically, right, the, the man City are owned by. And I think, look, whenever you see something, you think it's a conspiracy and you think it could be conspiracy or it could be. People are stupid. The world has taught me that people are just stupid and you know the Premier League, I mean, I think they are stupid. I've not thought this through because man City are owned by a state who is an important strategic partner to the British government. Right, they are not going to have a situation where that states, you know, very priced SF by the state is hugely devalued by the Premier League. It's just not going to happen. Like it's like it. Just, it's just not so.
Speaker 1:The Premier League, even if they, with best intentions, said no, we're going to apply the law, failure, I'm going to deduct my man's, whatever man's, it will not happen. So then they're going to be in a situation I really could see this happening when Everton, in two years or three years, after man City have gotten, you know, they might fudge it and give them a fine or whatever. Everton, go well, hang on a minute. You know we're now going to sue you because you Impeded us in a way that was unfair and inconsistent.
Speaker 1:And even though the Premier League makes its own rules, anything, you know, any Body in the UK, you know the process of judicial review, allows you to seek a judicial review, literally by a court, of any decision that's made anywhere if it breaches, you know, the, the important, the principles of justice. So at that point that Everton could go to a judicial review, the Premier League and the whole thing could flip on its head. So I think that's the where the story is going to move to very quickly is, how do the Premier League extract themselves From? Actually, they back themselves into a corner, you know they. They look like they're being tough but they achieve very little, but they've. They've back themselves into a corner. Sorry, andy, I want to send this three times there. What?
Speaker 4:are you?
Speaker 1:I think it's finally before we're gonna wrap up, but give us your final thoughts on. You know how you think this plays out from there.
Speaker 2:One point on something Ben said a little while ago about why a points deduction was preferable to a transfer ban, and I completely agree with everything he said, because obviously the the lower half of the Premier League or the lower third of the Premier League this season is the weakest it's been for some considerable time. You've got three teams in Luton, sheffield United and Burnley, who have struggled so far and probably will struggle for the remainder of the season. Now next season Could be different because Leicester in Ipswich are flying at the top of the championship and Leeds and Southampton are having Good seasons as well. So there's every possibility that the bottom of the Premier League next season could be stronger than average, which is why you really don't want to go into next season With any sort of transfer ban hanging over your head or being implemented, because for the reasons Ben's already alluded to, that would be arguably an even worse situation to be in than having a points deduction this season.
Speaker 2:And as to listen, what do I know? I didn't think we'd end up with a points deduction at all and here we are with 10, so Go in and appear. I wouldn't be at all surprised if, on appeal, it's reduced to maybe five or six.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so it's interestingly on the hand through. No one was expecting a 10 point deduction Like that is true.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I like I know this from like you know I don't understand, like had Klanders-Stein sort of put but sources and I've told me that the club and the Premier League felt that the Premier League's briefing like knew that the Premier League's briefing of 12 points was like Trying to show that they were playing hard balls.
Speaker 4:The club, everyone around it, the Premier League, most of the people in the know there were sort of expecting a, you know, six points of a fine or three points with three points of a, spend it in a fine.
Speaker 4:So actually the panel have Because the panel is independent to the point that's worth making the panel have actually screwed the Premier League even more because the panel actually Given a penalty harsher than the Premier League actually really wanted. What the Premier League wanted here was to Was to brief out that story that said 12 points so they can pretend they were tough. And then when they given six points everyone sort of goes yeah, okay, that seems fair enough, they've dealt with it, they haven't said this enormous precedent. So I don't feel sorry for the Premier League at all, but it is interesting that the independent Independence of the panel and how hard the Premier League briefed it might have actually created this additional problem because no one was expecting this. No one like and I mean that like everybody that I've spoken to involved in this sort of world Nobody thought we were going to get the deduction this harsh nobody.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, just just just of the point dead quickly about. About the panel, you've reminded me of something I read in a Times article a couple of days ago. One of the members of the panel is a man called Nick Igo, and In 2007 he was the finance director at West Ham United.
Speaker 1:Oh, what happened at West Ham in 2007?
Speaker 2:Andy tell me. Let me remind you they signed two players called Javi Masherano and Carlos Tevez and played them in the 2006 2007 season, and they were crucially keeping West Ham United up. Carlos Tevez scored a goal at the last day of the season at Old Trafford, which meant that West Ham United stayed up and Sheffield United were relegated. Now turns out that West Ham breached third-party ownership rules with those two players, so they didn't own them, they weren't their players, they weren't properly registered. Now West Ham escaped a points deduction and paid 20 million pounds compensation to Sheffield United Instead, a situation that is still a running sore with Sheffield United today, and understandably so, because normally, if you feel like you're going to get a good score, you're going to get a good score. That's going to be a running sore, because normally, if you feel ineligible players for any reason, you end up with a points deduction. So I just, I just thought it was interesting that the finest director at West Ham when that situation was playing out was on the panel that gave Everton a ten point deduction.
Speaker 1:I mean clearly he's got the right expertise.
Speaker 4:I've done this. I know this one.
Speaker 1:He can spot some dodgy finances a fucking, by the way, that way, but like the thing about that is it's that's a situation where a points deduction would actually be Valid because you can actually look, particularly with. You can actually look and say, well, if he hadn't been playing on that day he wouldn't have scored that goal. So you know like. So you know you could actually in some way, because you don't know what happens in the alternative universe. But it was about specific players. Everton's overspend was interest payments on a loan for a new stadium and, by the way, why the Premier League have a problem with us. Redeveloping part of Liverpool was a separate, you know Question why that counts as a footballing expense to make any sense to me.
Speaker 3:Anyway, let's talk about Sorry I can't bring up one other thing I talk about. On the talk about the Premier League. I know if anyone's seen that's come out in the in in the athletic today by Adam Adam Clayton and he has the athletic and putting a freedom of information request about the sort of relationships and the email and dialogue between the Premier League and the foreign office around the time that the Newcastle Takeover was going through and it's it's well worth a read. It's just been broke today on the athletic because it adds more sort of weight to the idea that the you know that the Premier League is not fit for purpose and can't regulate itself, because they've said all along that the foreign office had absolutely no, had absolutely no involvement in the process At all and it transpires that they absolutely did. I mean that there's quite a lot of it, but I'll just sort of read out a couple of just Really a couple of things. Were, there were like there were meetings in like the days before between the Premier League and and the foreign office and there were emails exchanged in the days before and the foreign office actually would the foreign office actually briefed, distributed, prepared top lines. I imagine obviously awesome. This is like your sort of your sort of game, presumably for expected media scrutiny.
Speaker 3:I'm quote, I'm reading word for word now on the matter and the stock questions included how has the government allowed a country responsible for the murder of Jamal Kassagi to take control of one of North, the Northeast most important cultural assets?
Speaker 3:So the fact that the Premier League's act, the Premier League's maintenance that there was no involvement at all, has now been shown to be completely untrue. And If anyone remembers like the Premier League initially blocked the Saudi takeover About a year, 18 months beforehand, and then it all of a sudden, just kid, it all of a sudden just went like, seemed to went and go through. There was no sort of I, there was no build up to it. It was a real shock to me by anybody else. But so you sort of you know you wouldn't, you wonder what else is if those sort of emails have been happening. You know you wonder what else has happened in that. Anyway, I just thought that that was worth sort of pointing out and that'll be interesting to see what comes out from that, because the idea that the Premier League is corrupt is now going to be any sort of information that anybody has or evidence on that on that basis and will be making making headlines.
Speaker 1:Right Shall we talk about Maniati quickly.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just before we do. We should probably obviously not done a pod in a couple of weeks and we should probably just at least acknowledge the fact that Everton have managed to turn the positive performances earlier in the season into positive results. We've said on previous pods how all the numbers and XG and everything were all in the right direction and in you know, they're all in the right places where you'd want them to be. We just unfortunately weren't translating those good performances into into victories. But laterally we we've been doing that. I mean the last three away matches in London. We've won them all at Crystal Palace. West Ham and Rentford was the other one, wasn't it? No, I can't. I mean I've no idea when the last time was we won three consecutive away games in London. I'm going to guess it was quite a long time ago. So, and I can just just to again, it's very Everton. You know we finally turned the corner and we're now, you know, rushing towards a pl. You know we're now.
Speaker 1:Open the door, Felfa Clint.
Speaker 2:That's the sort of analogy I was searching for, cartoon style, yeah. But I mean, and it's absolutely galvanised the club. I mean, I mean, you know only don't know sort of many Evertonians in my neck of the woods, but the ones that do know are all as upset and angry about the current situation as I am, are all as bemused as everybody else is. I mean, the atmosphere for the game on Sunday is going to be absolutely sulfurous. And I mean man United. Obviously they're a good, they've got good players, but they're less than the sum of their parts, aren't they? They're not a very good team, they're good individuals. And I can remember a few years ago when was it? When was Ralph Ragnick, man United managed? Was that last season or the season before?
Speaker 3:Last that was. That was the season before Ten hard.
Speaker 2:Season before I went to see.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've seen man United put in some absolute dog ship performances at Goodison Park. We have seen Mourinho's man United lose four nil at man United and we beat Ralph Ragnick's man United as well whenever the season that was. So it's perfectly possible that we can get a result against them on Sunday and, you know, for the first time in some years the club's all going to be put in the right direction. So I, as far as I'm aware, nobody's got any injuries, nobody's comes back from any international games injured or anything like that such would. So he'll obviously have a full strength side to pick from. So I think what I think we're going to win. I'm going to say be optimistic and say two nil Everton.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's a really good point about that man United, a brittle as well, Very much so. Yeah, I just think in that atmosphere you know they're not I fancy us against them. Anyway, the way we're playing right now, I think that Goodison is going to be like it hasn't been for a long time on Sunday and I just think it's going to be very, very difficult for you know, man United to do a psychologically weak team, you know, to stand up to it. So I agree, I think we'll win. Adam, what are you? What are you thinking?
Speaker 3:To be honest, I couldn't wish for a better team to play, because they're very perverse sort of perverse side, you know, because they're actually. They're actually like top, if not. They're actually like, I think, second or third, if not top of the form table of the primary league, which sounds really perverse, you know, given all the negative or the scrutiny that they've been getting over the last few weeks, because I think they've won like four or five primary games or something, they've just not done any of any of it with any conviction whatsoever and that's the only that they're. In lies the sort of difference. Yeah, united are about as solid as a Liz trust government when, when they're put under pressure so they're not going to be any, then they all go.
Speaker 3:The atmosphere and the way the, the fans and the players are going to be really up for this game, you know, obviously on the back of a really good win away at Palace and then a two week international break in between means it's, it's a, it's a combination of lots of different factors which are going to be mean. It's going to be a hell of a hell of a game for, for us, and I can't what? I can't, absolutely can't wait. Can't wait for it.
Speaker 1:It's interesting about my United form because, I don't know, maybe this is like a perverse thing to say, but I think they've been a bit lucky, honestly like, because they they wouldn't like game to get against who it was when Tony made came off the bench and scored twice in a minute which are both like sort of scrappy, you know sort of scrappy goal, and they all count, obviously.
Speaker 1:And then I'll watch for the next game and they're they're even in winning. I don't think they've been that convincing, you know, and the team selection is very strange over there now. You know, he's got McGuire's back in, he's got you know what is it for? An is that the center half? He's got to be playing, and so I just think there's a lot going on. That not, there's a lot going on there isn't working at all, and I think, if we know that we should beat them and that man United but you know, I don't think they're going to be up for up for a fight and bloody hell they're going to get one on Sunday, anything else, for anything else before we wrap up.
Speaker 2:No, I think we should probably wrap up the possibly the longest pod we've ever done. I keep thinking of more things to say about the FFP and everything, but we could be here all night.
Speaker 1:Depending on how many. How many uses the word honey to cut the. That's for work, for we're only an hour and six minutes, so it's not not the longest one we've ever done. Okay, fair enough, we have an amazing ability to always come in around an hour like it just is. No, we don't. We don't limit it, we don't like. There's no. Trust me, as you can tell, dear listener, there is no planning organization, it's all. We always sort of just end up at an hour. So, yeah, we're about, we're about right, all right, so we'll be back after, after Sunday's game and, you know, hopefully on the other side of a victory, follow us on Spotify, apple podcast, wherever you get your podcast will be there and tell your ever since supported mates that were here and always want to get new listeners. And come on, you blues, let's give my United hell on Sunday. You.