On the day Everton announce the passing of Chairman Bill Kenwright we pay our tributes, plus a look back at the derby, and Ben and Adam have an argument about referees.
Welcome to episode 65 of the Police Brothers Everton podcast. It's good to be back. We've got four people here, but maybe, mixing it up slightly, andy can't make it. Presumably he's working driving the truck delivering the eggs I don't know specifically, but Ben's back. Ben's, who's now a dad, so how's that? I mean it's great I'm getting less sleep than I ever used to, but that's part of the job. And so far, due to his seen as a loser Derby in controversial circumstances, embarrassingly lose to Luton and beat Bournemouth. So you know it's a mix, been a mix start to his career as an Evertonian. It's been. It's been an appropriate setting of expectation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:He was born on the day we lost to Luton. Yes, we were, in fact, he was born whilst we were one nil down to Luton yeah which was you know, I felt like an appropriate welcome into the world of Evertonian. When we watch the games in New York, if anyone goes to the loo and then the opposition score, then it's like that it's their fault. Yes, so that?
Speaker 3:is huge. That's what I'm saying to you, is that that's what happened.
Speaker 1:I'll play in this podcast when he's old enough to listen to this and we can all remind him that it's his fault. That'll be, that'll be very funny. Speaking of dads dad is here.
Speaker 3:How are you doing? I'm doing very well. Great to be here in Washington. Yeah, seeing the new addition to the Wraith family and the new addition to the Everton family. Yeah, we need all the support. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:The poor soul. Really good, awesome. So me, ben and Dad are in Washington, adam is in back home in Mansfield.
Speaker 4:How are you doing, ed? I'm good, thank you, yeah, I've been. It's been very rainy here in the UK, as it has been over the last few days, and so I spent a day of my, my two, my two girls inside, so we watched the Lion King for like the third time in a week.
Speaker 2:Excellent. Could be worse?
Speaker 4:It could be worse. It's a fantastic film and, to be fair, I mean I can't imagine I'm doing any spoilers here for any listeners who have not seen it, I think, once films are 20 years old. It's a safe, but I'm yeah, I mean I'm immune to Mufasa's death now.
Speaker 1:Original animated or, slightly weirdly, live action animated remake Original animated.
Speaker 4:It's got to be, isn't it Right? Correct answer by the way.
Speaker 1:He's not. I mean, you know he's raising actual children here, not in Mansfield. All right, Great to be here. Sorry, andy's not here. I know he's listening because he always does. So I hope you're doing well, andy, wherever you are. We look forward to having you back next week. We're going to start with some sad news today Everton you know now it's Bill Kenright Cops chairman, have passed away. I think it had been known he'd been ill for some time. Still obviously very sad. Our thoughts go out to Bill's friends and his family. We're going to talk about him a little bit now and you know I, you know, didn't know the guy at all. I met him once actually, I met him and Farhad Mishiri together on a train and they were both lovely. So that's my only personal experience with the guy. But we're going to spend just a few minutes at the top just sort of reflecting on his impact of the club. Dad, I'll start with you because you we were just talking before we started recording that Kenright talked about being going to Seattle. It's in the boys.
Speaker 1:And in the 50s, late 50s, you're definitely the only other person on this podcast.
Speaker 3:We went to the boys' panel in the 1950s. He may well have been in the same boys' panel as he was for the same game. Yeah, yeah, it was the brutal boys' panel. It was described and it was. Yeah, it was. It was tough, yeah, but we survived it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you remember from that? Like watching Everton back then.
Speaker 3:Well, late 50s, I mean, it was totally different game to now, in those days when you say anybody could win the, the first division as it was, anybody could. It was far more equal than it is now, wasn't dominated by money and in many ways it was, you know, a better game to watch. No television, of course, most television, but no television. Televised live games. So you know, to watch football you had to be physically there. I mean, it was there one box a day, for instance, when there were 75,000.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in course.
Speaker 3:So yeah, we think we've got a different game but and Ken Wright sort of seen it all the way through from from then so then. So now very sad. You know, I don't feel very sad actually and I'm sort of different football and people have died recently. But I've been particularly sad about Bill Ken Wright and particularly because you know some fortunate stuff do, all the good things that he has done for the club and he has that the last 18 months or so, the last 18 months of his life have been probably his lowest time in relation to, you know, was Everton and how he was with the club and the fans. So it's sad from that perspective. But I think we've got to see beyond that unrecognised that you know. In many ways he did rescue the club. He became chairman in 1999.
Speaker 1:Ninety nine bucks in 1999. Well, he bought the club. Then. He actually became chairman for you.
Speaker 3:He did and he was just housed by the club. Now I don't know what the alternative would have been, and for many years I mean again I hadn't realised that in the 16 and a half years that he was being chairman, he appointed two managers. Well, actually only appointed one manager, he only appointed David Moyes. Yeah, and Walter Smith was already there and you know, since his time, those years with David Moyes, I think there was a perfect partnership there. They just yelled, we were good on the pitch.
Speaker 3:The issues now about you know hungry players and you know they were hungry players. In many ways they matched, they mirrored Moyes' personality. So I think they were good times and I think after that, after Mishiri came in and he took her back, he did take a step backwards. I do think there's some of the problems that Mishiri brought on the club have in fact been by the fans Maybe, maybe understandably, have been attributed to Ken Wright, which I think is his unfortunate, so in many ways great Evertonian, probably one of the best Evertonians ever. And I do hope that when we think back about Bill Ken Wright, that we remember all those good years and maybe the last 18 months or so, which haven't been so good. You know we can. We can sort of ignore that. Really to the next step. It's interesting you talk about him saving the club.
Speaker 1:I'm just about old enough to remember the Peter Johnson. You know tenure. I mean we won the FA Cup during that time but it all fell apart very, very quickly, you know, after that, and so he did. You know Everton it was. It's easy to it's easy to forget how difficult that period was when we were having a fire sale of players and there was real questions about the future of the club. And obviously we're sort of living through that again now. But you know time. You know Ken Wright was the, was the great white knight, ben. What are your thoughts on Bill? Yeah, I mean I've got a lot of what dad said. I'm not quite old enough to remember the Peter Johnson sort of era. I remember the fire sale when we had to. You know we saw when we signed Decor and Matarazzi Decor and Matarazzi, and then Yikuba.
Speaker 3:Yikuba was later, wasn't he? Yikuba was later.
Speaker 1:Yikuba was later Yikuba was later Yikuba was later Yikuba was later, yikuba was later, yikuba was later, but yeah, so I remember that and I sort of got the sense at the time that it was a difficult period for the club, I think. But I think, if you look at two things one, if you look, if you read the club's tribute on the website, which details a lot of the achievements that he made, and you also read a lot of the tributes to him from people inside and outside of football. Two which I would highlight, actually, one was Dan Meiss, who is the architect of the Broadway More Dark, who basically categorically say that stadium wouldn't have happened without Bill Kenright, without him driving it, without him being able to, without him, you know, having the courage to, as Dan himself, like a point in American, as the architect for it and really drive it through. So I think he has a great legacy for Emsen Football Club. I think for the last 18 months have obviously been difficult. How much of that is Bill Kenright's fault? I don't think it's difficult. I think it's very easy to say.
Speaker 1:I think the problem Bill Kenright had or had with Evertonian certainly was he never had enough money, which is not his fault, and then when he did sell, he sold to the wrong person and I think you can judge those, you can judge the second one of those however you like, but I think he rescued the club at a time when we needed rescuing and he re-mortgaged his house.
Speaker 1:He, you know we put a lot of his heart and soul into the football club probably saved us from a much worse fate than we find ourselves in now, given the situation back then. And I think I hope that the on reflection and with a bit of distance and with a bit less heat in what is a very fractious time for the football club, people will come to recognise that on balance, for instance, football club, he was a huge positive and even if there are, you know, legitimate reasons people might feel that you know he should have moved on earlier. He should have, you know, he shouldn't have sold to machinery, he shouldn't have been himself and transfers, whatever that is, whatever people's like quibbles or issues are with how he's, how he's been involved in the running of the football club in the last you know couple of years, I think, on balance, everton football club are a better football club because of Bill Kenright and I think that's a testament to his passion, his energy, his, you know his love for football.
Speaker 1:And I think the other thing I would say, the other person I would that gave a really great tribute earlier was the actor Ian McKenna, and we shouldn't forget that, like Everton football club, was a huge part of Bill Kenright's life. But it wasn't the only thing that he did. You know he was in his own right. He was a soap actor At the time when he sort of when he took Good Brothers on the World Tour was one of the, you know, biggest stage in film producers on the planet. You know people forget that he had. You know Everton was his passion project, but before that he built a film and theatre empire which was world renowned. I think it's right to sort of reflect on the number of people in the arts that will be feeling that today as well. Yeah, thanks. So it's a really important point, dan.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just to say something correct, something I said earlier. Of course he did Kenright, did appoint Roberto Martin, as well as David Noyes, and in a sense, maybe that's when he started making wrong decisions, because, if you remember, we had one good season.
Speaker 4:Yeah, standards that he did, and I said this at around the same time, like you know, we were constantly punching above our weight. Well, you can't really constantly punch above your weight. It's a contradiction in terms and I think Kenright is Kenright is a huge part of why we were doing that, because he always said we would give, I would give David whatever money I had. And if you remember the Lescott sale to City, you know we got £20 million and then we bought John Heitinger, sylvan Distan and a third player who I forget, and basically reinvested pretty much the whole lot. So he was a man of his word and when, when, when, he said he would do something like that and he would. And you know, in hindsight, you know Mishiri was a was a poor person to to have on board. I wouldn't say, like you know, he was a poor person to choose because he done so much due diligence over the years of making sure that the person who he did choose or people he did choose, he did choose, were right for the club. You know he turned down the. You know Venki is, for example, who went to Blackburn and absolutely, you know, destroyed that as them, as a football club. You know well established Premier League football club and they've not been back in the Premier League since they were relegated. And you know what was that about? Me was about 12 years ago now and he, he was. You know, he was a real ever to. He was a real evertonian who always, you know, remembered his roots.
Speaker 4:And another thing I think worth mentioning is the. You know, you see, just like looking through the tributes from on on Twitter and the replies, when you know you can, a chairman might pass away, and that you know there are so many football clubs that are sending their condo answers to, to, to us and his friends and family. And it's not just the fact that, it's not just the fact that you know well, he's well well thought of in terms of, you know, footballing, amongst footballing people in the Premier League and the football league, but you know he's really thought of well, and rightly so, by Liverpool football club as well, Because we remember the. You know, in 2013, during the, you know when the Hillsborough verdict or the investigation is said that it would, it was, it was, it was a common with the exact timeline, whether whether the verdict could just come out at that time or whether it was being reinvestigated. I can't remember exactly the exact circumstances why he was in Anfield, but we remember that, that famous, that famous line that he said where he says you know, they've taken on the wrong city and they've taken on the wrong mums, and that was a. He touched the like, he touched the hearts and the minds of so many people and you know he'll be a huge miss to Everton.
Speaker 4:And you know we're right to make a real point about the last 18 months because that cannot be the way that he has remembered for the fantastic contributions he's made for Everton. And I've always been, you know, right up until about I'd say about 18 months. You know, 18 months ago I was a real person who used to see the value and what camera was doing and it's unfortunate last 18 months has been been. You know he's been embroiled in what I think is actually a far had muchiery driven issue with the, with the club. But it's really important that you know we he joined in 1989 and became chairman in in 2004.
Speaker 4:And I remember, you know, late 90s, early 90s, like you know. But you know rumors of people going around house to house looking for, looking for money, for money to give to the club, to buy to sign Kevin Campbell and we didn't have enough money to buy Sean Davis for like 3 million quid back in the early 90s in the early 90s, and so he took over as chairman at a time when we were very, you know, we were, we were favourites to go down and he made the right choice with David Moyes and always back David Moyes and made a good and did make a good higher replacement with with Roberto Martinez. So, yeah, it'll be, it'll be sadly missed and you know you just hope that you just hope that is is his contributions over the next, you know, couple of years with the issues that we're having not going to be ultimately in vain.
Speaker 1:We should link that the speech he gave actually to Anfield at the morning that's shown us, because it is worth watching the full thing to really understand what classy person he was and how, as Adam said, how that speech really endeared him to the Liverpool fans in a way that few Evertonians I think ever could. So we should link to that because Adam had totally spot on.
Speaker 2:So, though Andrew couldn't join us live on the pod, he did want to pay tribute to Bill Kenwright, and he sent me some thoughts to include, which are coming up right now.
Speaker 2:I once met Bill Kenwright on a train going from London to Liverpool for a game at Goodison Park.
Speaker 2:He was kind enough to let me have a photo taken with him, and I also remember how kind he was talking to the train crew and station staff during that journey, and you can tell a lot about somebody's character and what their general demeanours like by how they talk and interact with people performing those sorts of roles. Did he get everything right during his tenure as Everton chairman? No, he most certainly didn't, and I'm sure he'd be the first to admit that. However, I firmly believe that he always had the club's best interests at heart and that he always did what he thought would be the best decisions, for, you know, made the best decisions for the football club. I'd like to send my condolences to his family, friends and loved ones and lastly, remember that he managed to achieve what a good number of us would want to do, which was to own and run our beloved football club. Thank you, and you can now return to the rest of the pod, so before we move on.
Speaker 1:Dan, I'm going to come back to you because another legion of the game, bobby Charlton, passed away this week and we all obviously knew Bobby Charlton was, but you saw him play, if I'm not wrong. Not that we want to make the entire podcast about how old you are, it's just useful in the context. So you know, tell us about watching him playing. Watching him and United team.
Speaker 3:Well, he was an attacking midfield player, tremendous pace, but his main attribute was his shots. The power of his shot was amazing. You know you've got this mental picture of him, you know, running through ballless, his feet, his hair, because he had the most famous coma ever.
Speaker 1:Why don't you do something with? That, bobby Well he never did that homeover. He had the age. He had that coma for about age 25.
Speaker 3:He was a wily, wily, wily I'd say he was coming through this sort of comogria all over the place. The ball had left Leave his foot in the back of the net. You know it was a tremendous player, there's no question, and of course he was involved in the. He was just a survivor from the Munich crash and again, as I said earlier, you know football was different then and Manu were the team that were going to dominate. Then there was the Munich crash and then I was surprised to read the today that you know they won the championship, I think that season or the next, the First Division title that season or the season after, and he never won anything else after that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I was reading some stuff about United this week in the context of Charlton that. I think it was Jonathan Wilson in the Guardian. Part of his piece talked about how actually they've had these long periods of not winning. They wouldn't. They went from the 60s until Ferguson's first title without winning anything. So you hope for all of us.
Speaker 3:The other thing.
Speaker 1:I would say about Charlton is that he always you sort of forget because we were around at a time in the history of the context. You know he won the bag on door, he won the World Cup. He wasn't just a good midfielder, he was the best footballer in the world and probably one of the best footballers who's ever lived. You know the people talk about him alongside you know, maradona and Pele in terms of being like that level of that level of quality.
Speaker 1:So I think we it's easy to sort of underestimate or not appreciate, I guess, when you, when you haven't seen him play in Dono, the history just just how good he actually was, even in the context of the football.
Speaker 3:You've already read anything about this, but he actually at one stage was on a television quiz show and he got all the way through. I think he really won whatever it was and it was answering questions about I think it was jazz, and I'm convinced to this day that somebody must have given him the answer. His knowledge was encyclopedic. How can anybody know that much? Anyway, that was Bobby Charlton winning a TV quiz show.
Speaker 4:Fantastic, adam go ahead. Yeah, I think he was much like Cameron, you know, was and is remembered as being a real gentleman as well, because he, you know, the United, won the European Cup ten years after the Munich disaster and had that. You know, the famous trinity of, you know, dennis Law, george Best and Bobby Charlton at the time, and he was, dennis Law was, you know, quite an outgoing bloke, apparently, according to reports I've read, and George Best obviously, as we all know, was an extremely outgoing bloke and but Bobby Charlton was, you know, very much like he was. You know, in his life he stayed very, very humble and, you know, was extremely dedicated to United and just listening to, you know, did to Diego Dallo on the radio earlier and he said how, even, you know, even like this season of last few seasons, when he's been there, he was pretty much every single game he would come into the changing rooms and talk to the players and stuff about how the game went and stuff. You know he was United through and through and we've all had, you know, we've all had past players that we can consider like that.
Speaker 4:So, and you know, on top of the, his incredible influence in in, you know, getting us to the world to win the World Cup in 66, where I think, if my knowledge shows me correctly, scored twice against the Netherlands, I think in the semi-final Portugal as, yeah, portuguese saviours, portugal, course it was, and yeah, so he'll be. It'll be really missed and and, and. Now that's only, and, that, only that. That leaves only a suggest Hurst as the only remaining winner of course worth reflecting on.
Speaker 1:All right, we're gonna talk about Everton, we'll talk about the Derby and we'll do this. We're gonna do this kind of in two hops and we'll talk about the performance first, then we're gonna talk about the refereeing situation, part of the one that one comes to Ben for that. We'll do that because Ben's a referee, so we can give us sort of maybe a slightly more rounder perspective on this than I wouldn't beg for me giving a round of perspective if you'd see me introducing you to some colorful language on there on Sunday mornings teaching when to use it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Ben also didn't have the opportunity to join us on our last week's refereeing round, which is becoming on Vogue in a weekly feature, so we're gonna get to that. But, adam, I'll start with you. First performance what do you think about the game? And you know, obviously, you know lose, naturally, when we did impacted it, but what's your assessment what Everton's performance in that game?
Speaker 4:I thought it was really good. I didn't. Unfortunately I didn't manage to watch it, but from reports and talking to you guys and listening to like the Guardian Football Weekly and another bits, we defended really, really well and had a good game plan up until the point when Ashley got set in top In the first half an hour 37 minutes. When Jung did get sent off, we pressed them high and that's how we created our only opportunity by Calvert. Lewin should probably do better with that header straight at Alisson and I've talked I've watched Lyrical a lot about this we did, but his tactics do not get the credit that they deserve. We are a team that presses high and there's a real tactical nows there, which is encouraging, and we saw against Bournemouth what the damage that we can do when we're on that, when we're on our pressing game, and also when we convert our chances. So that was good. And then we then had Jung getting sent off and, in my opinion, deservedly so.
Speaker 4:I know there were different opinions about whether they were both yellow cards, whether the first one wasn't yellow card. In my opinion they were both yellow cards and fair do's. He got sent off. But after that, Dice made necessary tactical changes which meant that we went very defensively and tried to play for a draw. And I think if Michael Keane doesn't, for some bizarre reason, just have an inkling or an inclination or really want to have a desire to stick his arm out at this day and age, let alone in the 90s or 80s or 70s, when that would have been handball and a penalty as well, that would have been handball in the 1870s, I mean, it was absolutely astonishing and I think you can make a case for the fact that we would have got a 0-0 draw if it wasn't for that, because up until that point we were Pickford didn't really have anything of note to do. I can only really see on the highlights I had the Harvey Elliott save, which was obviously after we were already called.
Speaker 2:You say Harvey, I'm the first.
Speaker 4:I think it's in Harley. No, I said Harley Eviot.
Speaker 1:She's neither of his names.
Speaker 4:And picking out individuals like Tarkovsky and Brantzweight were fantastic. Michael Enko was really good against, you know, and it was great to see him getting good performance under his belt. Yeah, it was a real shame from the footballing point of view, I think 2-0 sort of the flat at Liverpool in some respects in terms of the chances created. But you know, it bodes well for when you know we do get put under that in those situations there was a real togetherness and I think that's one thing we've not seen from evidence themes over the last few years. We really stuck together and I think that has been a real sign of Dysha's influence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and I think the tactical point is well made, adam, because I think the changes he made at halftime was actually a really bold, brave, in a way, thing to do and really was very, very smart in terms of capturing what Liverpool were trying to do and, as Jürgen Klopp said, after the game, fours Liverpool to then play differently, which in the end, they got a breakthrough again because they really got lucky. They were not creating anything because they you know you just decided to shut down their wing play. Basically, it was like we're going to make you play through the middle of us, which we know you don't want to do. So you know it was. Yeah, it's nice to have someone in charge who is paying attention. Dad, what were your thoughts?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you know, normally when you're watching on the TV, most of the time I'm playing at Liverpool, you're watching it from behind the couch.
Speaker 3:You're panicking every time they attack you imagine they're going to score. Didn't feel like that. Didn't feel like that at all. Very comfortable watching it. I thought the Eretton defensively were magnificent. I thought the press was very good and I think if they didn't have, you know, bad luck and it was bad luck. And Michael Richards apparently didn't see the direct quote, but when him saying that if you look at the penalty, michael Keane's arm was out before the ball left to run.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he didn't move it so if you're looking at the and Ben will talk more about this I'm sure that my understanding of the definition of handball is it's got to be deliberate.
Speaker 2:That was the definition.
Speaker 1:That used to be the definition and the mis-view.
Speaker 3:that was not a deliberate handball is hand just happened to be there. Having said that, when Ben and I were watching this together, we said that's a penalty, so we can understand the decision. It was so unfortunate.
Speaker 1:It was, it was, and it's one of those ones where you'd be going nuts if it was. If we flip it over and we don't get it, you'd be going to spare, wouldn't you? So Ben talks about the penalty things. That could be easier, and then we'd appreciate your view on you know and with I mean I ask you to, because we can all rant about referees and anyone else give us a window into how a referee can possibly approach and make that kind of decision, and I know you think he was a complete pillar.
Speaker 3:But I'll do my best.
Speaker 1:I'll do my best. Neutral Craig Paulson. Just on the game. Very quickly first, I think I agree with Adam and Dan. I thought we played really well. I thought we were tactically really solid. I think Ashley Young was spectacularly naive to make the tackle that he made already being one of the other card. I think he just lost his head which is not what you expect from a 38-year-old.
Speaker 2:I think he'd forgotten.
Speaker 1:But with as much experience as you have.
Speaker 2:I think he'd forgotten he'd been booked?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think he'd. Do you think he's that old?
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe he's had a lot of blows to the head.
Speaker 1:No, because, like you're right, like, and my sort of view on that was I. You know I'm slightly disagree with Adam. I'm not sure you could get away with the first one not being a yellow. It's on the margin, but once you've got it, yeah, you can't. I mean it doesn't matter. Like you don't make that tackle.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think that was naive and that was it was. It was stupid in that sense to put us in that situation. So that was, that was disappointing. But yeah, I thought we defended. Well, you know, I thought the tactical changes were good. Liverpool didn't create anything until they got a penalty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they had one shot on target, I think, and that was a long range effort which was straight to Pickford. It wasn't like they were, you know, peppering the goal when Pickford was having a man on a match performance. I thought I thought Braddick Wait was superb. I think he is. We should start the clock until we sell him to man City for £100 million, because I think that's the trajectory that he's.
Speaker 2:Happy days.
Speaker 3:He's on.
Speaker 1:I thought Anana was superb again. I think he's really growing into that central midfield role and starting to run games. Dad and I said this at the time when we I think we actually said this when we were 1-0 down but we play like that the rest of the season against the worst teams. We absolutely find, like absolutely find no questions asked Right. Let me come on to the up to the referee. So on the penalty, their penalty, it's a penalty. You can, you can. You can dislike the law as it is written, but the law as it is written, that is a handball. I think. And this is the problem. Michael Keane, unfortunately, has developed a habit, or maybe he stands with his arms out.
Speaker 1:He stands with his arms out. We have things that like anyone who's got anyone who's got kids will have gone through the phase with newborns. You have to swaddle them, which is how you put them to sleep, because you have to pin their arms in so that they don't start up and wake themselves up. I think Sean Dice should put Michael. Keane in an adult swaddle in training for the rest of the season just so.
Speaker 1:his arms are pinned by his sides Because this, this, this is the second or third time where he's given away a penalty. Well, last four penalties, he's given away three of them, yeah, and I think one of them was exactly the same situation when he saw the penalty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, With defense, his arm out and it hits it and then he goes oh, but it's out. And you see this all the time. Fullbacks are really good at this. As soon as you're in that position where you're trying to block across, their arms go behind their back. And there's a reason for that.
Speaker 2:It's a signal.
Speaker 1:It's a natural instinct that he needs to develop and maybe he's too old to develop, maybe he's passing on, but it's a penalty. You cannot like the laws Because the law says natural or natural position.
Speaker 2:Or natural position Now Michael Keane defences.
Speaker 1:He'll look ref, look how I play. This is the natural position.
Speaker 2:It's between me, yes, so my arms are, my arms are naturally.
Speaker 1:But I think we all can have our issues with the handball law, but as a better, we both. I wouldn't tell them, as I was as soon as they showed the first replay, dad and I went you go nuts if you were not giving against us Speaking of going nuts when things aren't giving against you.
Speaker 1:I cannot. I've tried quite a lot to put myself in the mindset of a referee in that situation. With that yeah, with the canate second yellow card, that wasn't the only thing I can come up with. The only thing I can come up with is that Because if you watch it, there's two complete bits of contact. There's a contact down at the feet where he clips his legs, and there's a contact higher when he puts his arm on it. And I the only thing I can come up with is that person hasn't seen that he's clipped his feet and he's seen that he's put his hand on in and he's thought better, he's gone down a bit soft and he's gone.
Speaker 1:It's a foul, but it's not enough to justify a yellow card. To be super clear, it is a absolute stone wall yellow card at any level before. It's literally written that when you're a referee you have to, when you put in your yellow cards, you have to submit them all to the FA so that go into the system, so that clubs are properly fine and players are probably suspended, etc. Etc.
Speaker 2:When you put in yellow card, you have to select like.
Speaker 1:There's lower categories of detail where you have to select what you gave the yellow card for. That's also what we're assessed on afterwards. So the assessor will come in and and say, oh, what was that one for? And you have to go. Is it was filed, tackle, or it was done and we start play, or whatever. There is one called, as we call it, sba, which is stopping a promising attack, which is what can I?
Speaker 1:take on his first yellow card. For so, as soon as he makes the foul, however minor it is, it's not being a promising attack, it's not a hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I really struggle with the idea and the only thing you don't want to get into this. The only thing I can think is that he's been swayed by the fact it's a little poor. Yeah, because I, if, jared, if James Tarkovsky, who was on the other card, makes that same tackle, I guarantee I would put my mortgage on James Tarkovsky getting a second yellow card and walking. I just think he's been to whatever extent. Whether it's you, can you know people can talk about. Is it clots comments about? You know how live a poor on the receiving end of bad refereeing decisions? Is it the unfilled crowd? Is it the fact it's a Derby? Is it the fact that he feels like he would be doing it to vote even things up, which is the stupidest thing in football referees?
Speaker 4:do that, I miss it. Because I'm interested in this, I've gone full on conspiracy, not on it.
Speaker 1:I'm following you, adam. I would like to think, but, like, because you were ahead, you're silver foil hat was like it's a game so soon in the minded. But answering this question, is it your belief that referees in a game, when they know they fuck something up, will seek to even the score? Yes, okay, 100%. And let me tell you it's not about oh, I put this up, so I need to. I need to quote, unquote even what it's about, and this comes on to a conversation that Andrew's not here for, but we had sort of over text, which is about the influencing the spectacle of the game. I think that's an important part of what, because anyone who watched Arsenal man City will have seen coverage get a yellow card for what could have been a red and then avoid a second yellow for what was very clearly yellow and how it where. But afterwards on, when he did the first round, where he talks about decisions was basically said, michael Oliver, who was a referee, didn't want to impact the game by giving him what he viewed as a second, a yellow card where he didn't need to give the other card and impact me, because you stop at the number of text messages that when Ashley Young was sent off, the number of messages I got from people that said, oh, that's the Derby ruins, that's the spectacle ruin. It was a great game, it was fun and now it's ruined.
Speaker 1:There is absolutely and this isn't a secret referees. You know you go on a course. You, as you advance the levels which I've been looking enough to do you are. It is talked about that you're managing the occasion as much as you're managing the game, and a part of managing the occasion is how do I make sure that, at the end of the day, I'm not the one being talked about? How do I make sure that I give fans whether that's on TV, in the ground, whatever an experience where the game is lifted up and it's not the referee? Now, the mistake that Craig Paulson made is that everyone's talking about him because of something he didn't do. He went too far the other way, in the sense that everyone's now talking about him because he didn't send. Can I tell?
Speaker 2:if he sends can I?
Speaker 1:tell no one's talking about him because they're going to one got. Ashley Young right, got the penalty right. He got to know. That's it. He's gone too far the other way. But it absolutely is in the referee's mind that when you make a decision that book and clarify.
Speaker 2:Actually it's not about.
Speaker 1:Oh, I fucked something up one way because in the, in the moment you might not realize that is what it would do. What if you? What if you do? Because it's probably referees, they talk at halftime with the other officials that they will talk like they, you know, they would know. I mean, we saw the VR thing from Tottenham, liverpool. Yeah, whatever, fucking Olly, I bit us on the phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so imagine you do. Yeah, what's in a referee's mind? Yeah, and I've been looking up not to be in the situation too many times in my career, but I have definitely done things where I've gone. Yeah, I screwed, I know I screwed that up. What you're then looking to do and this is, like you know, the insight into how, unfortunately and this comes to the quality of refereeing in England so much is based on your own assessment and your own performance is it's almost about evening it up from a performance point of view as much as it is about.
Speaker 3:I need to give them something.
Speaker 1:So, like the thing we're talking is like, if you've given say you've given a controversial decision against the home team, right every 5050, throw in after that, you just give to the home team, even if you're not sure, if anything that's on the borderline, anything, a soft defensive free kick, give it to the home team because you're what you're trying to do. Part of managing the occasion and managing the players and managing the situation is making sure that you're demonstrating, you're making sure that you're trying to keep the temperature of the game down and you're making sure people aren't chatting with you. So if you've given, so in the you know, the Liverpool Spurs one is a bad example, because that's just so far off the reservation in terms of the mistakes that like you can't even.
Speaker 1:You can't even about, you can't manage the game in a way. But you absolutely will have situations where you might have given a soft penalty where you go. Okay, the next tackle that goes into the home team is a yellow card. If it's anywhere near borderline, I'm going to give you a yellow card and actually putting this himself. You'll have noticed this. He will at half time have had feedback that he's booked Tarkovsky and sent off young and Simicast, who had made 4000. The first half haven't got anything. The first foul in the second half was canate and he gave him the other card straight away.
Speaker 1:So he knows, hey I, he's got in his mind, hey I've got. I'm being too one side it's not one side, because it's not. I like to assume it's not actual bias, it's a lack of awareness, it's a it's incompetent, it's incompetent. But so there's like that was down to the second down right next to the microphone. Like all the, professional for the places in the room.
Speaker 3:Have you got any keys you want to go?
Speaker 1:So, he absolutely knows that he's created a situation where he's being perceived to be? Yeah, whether there's a perception that he's being unfair. That's interesting and I think that's where it's come out at half time in the first foul.
Speaker 2:that a little bit and is that in his mind when he?
Speaker 1:when he, when he's thinking about the second one, because he's like maybe that first one I was, it was for me, and basically the FA have said Premier League said to Liverpool don't worry, we'll see you right.
Speaker 3:You got that.
Speaker 4:That's that's. That's. That's what's happened. No, that's it doesn't matter. This is not and this isn't an anti Liverpool thing at all. It could have been spurs, could have been Villa. You know it happened to be. You know it's a lot more high profile because Liverpool are extremely high profile team, but I am absolutely 100% convinced that that is what that is.
Speaker 4:That's what's happened is that they have, they know that Liverpool was screwed over in the in that one and that they will get. They would have got a, they would have got a decision that they did not deserve. You get the thing and they've been and they've been told that. They've been, they've been told to, they've been taught and they've been told to do that because and his and his and you go back onto the point of where you said about you know, about Mike, about you know referees looking after each other is like we might be in. My dean basically admitted a few weeks back when he said about how we didn't want to. He didn't want to tell and he didn't want to tell him how. I think it was a. Was it Diego Costa pulling someone's?
Speaker 1:It was Christian Romero in the mirror pulling Kukare's hair.
Speaker 4:That was it. And, and you know, in the post match it said like it was basically put down to the fact that it was such an unusual event that they didn't really know what to do with it. And now it's obviously come out that you know he knew that it was a penalty. He didn't want to, he didn't want to put his quote mate wouldn't.
Speaker 1:It wouldn't have been a panel. It wouldn't have been a penalty because the ball was out of play. It should have been a red card for.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but my point is that, regardless of what the event, regardless of what the event was, my point is still valid. The fact that he looked after his quote, unquote, mate. And so the idea that these things don't happen has now just been blown out the water, because they obviously do happen. And you wonder now if Mike Dean is willing to say that on such a, and then the Premier League I'm going to repeat the PGMOL, sorry after after, we're saying, yeah, we don't really know where that comes from, that, because that thing doesn't happen. It's like, oh yeah, mike Dean, the guy who's just been one of the most high profile referees saying that that absolutely, he did that. I absolutely do know that happens and it's like it's opened up a can of worms in a lot of people's minds, primarily mine, and this is no, genuinely no, like anti Liverpool, anything like that. It's, it couldn't be about any team, I think.
Speaker 4:Added to the fact that it's, I think there is genuine corruption, I think and because we like to believe that the sort of stuff doesn't happen, I used to believe someone that doesn't believe that's happened. But you only have to look at other major leagues. The Spanish league has been marred by corruption officials, as has obviously Juventus, where they were sent all the way down to Ceresi about 15 years ago. These things do happen and I think we're scratching the surface of not just bad, just not just sheer incompetency, which is obviously well known amongst the echelons of Premier League refereeing. But I think there's genuine stuff where they do help each other out and not to say like it's pro or anti-anyone team or another. I just think that they look after each other so much they don't want to make each other look bad and that just has a real bad effect on things, and I think we're starting to see evidence of that.
Speaker 1:I think we have to be careful about attributing that to some sort of corruption, as opposed to, like the Mike D D stuff was stupid for a team. Can I imagine a situation where the referee in the middle has had a really difficult game? He's had not because he's made bad decisions per game, but there's been a lot of focus on him. There's been a lot of what we call KMI's key match incidents or key match decisions to make. Can I imagine a situation where you're at the end of the game and you go do you know what? I'm not going to put him in a situation where he has to make another one of those.
Speaker 1:Yes, I can and I can imagine that because I've done it. I've definitely been on the line in games where I've gone. I'm not going to give that. I'm not going to put the referee in a situation where he has to make another, another decision about a certain team. And it's not about looking after your mates. The fact Mike, the fact Mike Dean said mates was stupid, but I don't think it speaks to like. It's not some, some cabal of like referees looking after each other.
Speaker 4:What it is. I think that's literally what it is. I think that's what.
Speaker 1:I think it's easy to say that when you. I think it's really easy to say that when you watch it from the outside. I think what they have is they have a problem of competence. I think there are a lot of bad referees. I think they have a problem of trust, because I can absolutely see why people take the view out of that you're taking and it sounds like Austin is taking 100%. See that, because you know there is a little bit of you know, if it walks like a duck and quite like a duck, then it's a duck right. If it looks corrupt and acts corrupt and feels corrupt, then it's probably corrupt. So I can 100% see people, how people arrive at that conclusion and I think that's a massive problem for the PGML. I think genuinely, I think they're messy, not malicious. I think they're bad at their jobs. I think the the, the protocols and the processes are bad. I think the training is bad. I think the transparency is bad and that leads people to believe there's something else untoward going on there. Well, I don't think there is.
Speaker 1:I think Craig Paulson made a terrible decision because he's actually not a very good referee and he was in a situation where he let different things influence him where they shouldn't have done. I don't think he got on memo from anybody saying, hey, make sure Liverpool get a good decision on on on Saturday. I just don't think that's how it works. What you will have heard is the, the comments from Carp, and you feel it in the ecosystem. You feel that. But again, that's part of managing the occasion. I've said to my officials like I'm a referee, right, I go out and I, if I referee the top of the table versus the mid table, I've said to my assistants at the start of the game in my pre match brief hey, lads, one of these teams is trying to win the title, make sure at the end of the season they're not blaming us for the fact they don't right. That's a pretty normal instruction that referees will give and that's not sort of like hey, give them a freebie, give them a decision. It's going. Hey, let's make sure we referee this game in a way that we're not creating controversy and that works both sides. Paulson created controversy because of a decision he didn't make. In the same way, you can create controversy by decisions you do make. That is a perfectly legitimate way to approach refereeing. What their problem is is they have a dearth of quality of referees and that leads them to make statistically more bad decisions, which makes it look like that it's some sort of corruption, when actually it's just incompetent.
Speaker 1:All right, so we're going to talk about the future and again coming up against West Ham this coming Sunday. We're recording this on what's the fucking day? Is it Tuesday? Tuesday, so a few days. So I'm going to go to this game, which I'm excited about, thanks to the New York Evertonians getting me a ticket. Appreciate it. So what do we think? Ben, I'll start with you. What do you think about this game? It's interesting. Well, west Ham got taken to pieces by Villa yesterday, I think, but they've not looked terrible. This season.
Speaker 3:So you know, how do you think, how do you think we're going to approach it, how do you think it's going to go?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think in terms of approach, it will be similar to how I think we've approached the Brentford game, and away from home will be the model where you look West Ham are a better team than us, I think, both on paper and the current form of the season. But I think the way that we approach Brentford and the way that we set up in terms of playing counter attacking, I think he'll go back to the floor at the back. I don't think the five will feature, so I think he'll set up broadly the same way. You know, obviously you can't start, so you'd expect Paterson to come in on the right, but other than that, like I wouldn't expect the starting of having to have any major alterations to it, and I think he'll set up in a very similar way as we, as we played against Brentford, as we were trying to play against the people where it is.
Speaker 1:You know we're really, we play solid at the back. We try and hit them on the counter, we try and be, we try and take our chances when we create them, we've. It's one of those games where you sort of look at it on paper and you go, oh, that's probably not one way, you're going to pick much up, but we're almost set up to capitalise more in those games than we are in games against teams that are down the table. Because of how Dax wants us to play there's a weird sort of thing where you go actually we're more likely to beat West Ham than we are to pick up points at home against Luton or because of the way we're designed to play, specifically designed to take advantage of teams who will be on those more, will have more of the ball. With you know, with you know, the Brighton example was perfectly the Brentford example from earlier this season. So I don't feel like. I don't feel like it's you know we're definitely going to win. I think I'll probably go for doing predictions right now.
Speaker 1:We can, let's do it, I'm going to go for a 1-1 draw. I think I can see. I can see us sort of getting a goal in that counter-attacking way about. I think West Ham are a good side with goals in the team. I think they will give us a good game. But yeah, I feel pretty confident on the back of how we've been playing in the last couple of games, because we've won three of the last five now and one of those was Liverpool. So one of the games we lost was the Derby, which you know we've already been three times wide. So we're in good form and I feel pretty good.
Speaker 3:That's both. Yeah, well, I mean, we all know we could have been nine points better often. You know, we're looking at the situation now and I totally did, footway being right up near the top of the league, but we're not. For me, the issue is is that we've got to turn what we think Everton should be doing with the actuality, what they actually could, because they all open down. I keep saying we're a good team, we're a better team than the results and the points would suggest, but we do need to start winning games to actually cement that fact, to make it a fact rather than a wishful thinking. I think this sort of game is the game that we need to start getting something out of, at least the draw, because I say otherwise we've run the risk of having all full of open expectation of what ought to happen, but the reality on the ground, literally on the football ground, is that it's not happening, as we need to change that expectation to reality and we do need to start getting points at the likes of West Ham.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're not going to just do it again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. The idea is that over a course of season, the stats match the actual results, right? What's your prediction?
Speaker 3:I agree with Ben, I think 11. Adam.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I agree with them with what Ben said about perversely. These are the sort of games where you go to Brentford away and Brighton away. Obviously no one saw Brighton coming last season, but those sort of two victories in the recent memory have meant that you go to West Ham with a lot more confidence than you would on paper, because the way West does, ben said, the way West set up, lends itself really well to that. So, yeah, so, but I'm aware that I've been sort of doing a Mark Lawrenson with my predictions, because I'd love to have made a tally, because I think I've probably had us win the league title the last two seasons, I imagine, with my sort of prediction. So I'll go for us to lose this one just purely for that reason and not nothing else.
Speaker 1:All right, I think we're going to win 2-1, because I'm there and I'm a positive A good bunch, Charles. Actually we always. Every game I go and see now we draw. Basically you take a draw, but that's four games I've seen. All right, so that's all good. That's the only ever stuff. Adam, you wanted to talk about the stunningly successful Saudi League, so take it all.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, yeah, this I forgot about that, this was just yeah caught my attention yesterday that L Etty Fack, who Stephen Gerrard absolutely didn't go there for the money and Jordan Henderson absolutely didn't go there for the money, their team played in front of 600 and 72 people and the Mirror very, very handily gave you a list of English football not even football league, but league matches where, in the ninth tier of the English football system, which had more people attend than there. So, yeah, I thought that was the idea that Jordan Henderson can complain in front of 600 and 72 people and then make a claim for going to the European championships.
Speaker 1:I can confidently predict I genuinely refereed in front of crowds bigger than that. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:And this wasn't like a low elite, this wasn't like a low hook game against some third division Saudi team. They played Al Riyadh, who are one of the biggest Al Riyadh or Al Ali, I don't remember which one it was, I think it was Al Riyadh but one of the biggest Saudi teams on paper, one of their biggest games, and I mean I shouldn't, I mean I don't laugh, but it is a little bit. It is a little bit funny not for Neymar, but it's very, very funny that you spend, you're paying someone three and a half million pounds a week. Thank you, football manager, for that, for that, for that source and information right there, because that's one of the first things I did when I downloaded the beta version the other day was look at the eye watering salaries that Benzema and Neymar etc. Are getting, which is like you know what's that? Something like some hundred and fifteen hundred and thirty million pounds a year, and now he's just done his ACL.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. Despite having they even we've been watched again they still can't get over a thousand people amazing.
Speaker 3:What a wonderful country. I'm glad Jo's Nanderson's taken over their money. I'm saying it. Would this be in a podcast? You can't see Adam laughing. What are? You laughing at. He thinks it's so funny oh it's hilarious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Adam said it's not funny and then proceeded to tell a joke and then laugh at it?
Speaker 4:No, it is. No. I hate the idea of, like you know, where fans laugh at players getting injured, because I think that's really, really cruel. And I'm not laughing at Neymar at all because it's difficult to laugh at what happened to him. I'm laughing purely at the fact that happened to the Holt Wollgum. And just to go back onto the like what Gareth Southgate said, which was, you know, absolute nonsense about Jordan Henderson the idea of, like you know that he didn't understand. Not only did he not understand where the booze came from, but he was quite vociferous in his defence of Jordan Henderson. I get that he's one of his lieutenants, but it's like come on, gareth, there's like he's not. We're not booing him because he doesn't deserve to be there, we're booing, he's getting booed because he's a massive, massive hypocrite.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I thought it was a, you know. Yeah, as you say, managers have to defend their players, but he stretches our credibility past breaking point in that one. Yeah, all right, I think we're done, anything else from anything else.
Speaker 1:No, all good, all right, great to see you all. Thanks for listening. Follow us on Spotify, apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts, we're there. Follow us on Twitter the Twitter's in the show notes. We'll see you on the other side of the West Hub game, I guess, when I'll be maybe even in the same room as Adam next week, which is You're doing the full tour. An enticing prospect, and Ben maybe has had the child by that.
Speaker 3:That's not.
Speaker 1:You need to go back to Biola. That's not how it works. I don't know how it works. No, it's complicated. You always were bad at school, though, so that's very true. All right, stay well, everybody, and we'll see you all next week.